Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

If Toyota can run on $75 million a year and win, Mazda can. Their sales are through the roof. They make enough money, its like Toyota's board being conservative on the lmp project.

Sales through the roof doesn't always equal a healthy profit.
Mazda has always done it their own way, with very few partnerships in developing new technologies and platforms. (the new MX5 being uniquely developed with FIAT group)
This is very expensive and requires a high volume of sales to equal the research and development costs.
I'm glad to hear that Mazda sell well in the USA, but in Europe it is not going well. Now they are facing even tougher times with the new Passat and Mondeo stealing the Mazda 6's demographic.

For Mazda to survive, they need to do their marketing very direct with a high return on investment, which sadly, racing isn't doing (despite what Bernie Ecclestone says). I'd rather see Mazda survive, chunk out a few good cars now and then and do some low budget marketing to rekindle the memory of their former glory of the 787b. The risk of doing a full LMP1 program is just too high for the relative small economy of Mazda, compared to the might of Toyota.
Besides, Toyota uses $75 million a year to run the program, it most likely doesn't factor in the original upstart cost of a LMP1 program like:

• Building the right facilities
• Hiring the staff needed
• Initial research and development
• and so on...

All costs Toyota already had covered (more or less) from their F1 program. Something Mazda need to either out source or build up from the ground.

So sorry to say, like Peugeot, we won't see them back in LMP1 in any near future.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

If Toyota can run on $75 million a year and win, Mazda can. Their sales are through the roof. They make enough money, its like Toyota's board being conservative on the lmp project.

Toyota is a lot bigger as a company though. No idea how marketing budgets of large vs. medium/small manufacturers generally compare but one would think there is some correlation.

Even the GrC program was more like half-assed underdog type program. That's not gonna cut it in today's full speed attack race.

[Speed-King]

If they want to make a mark on the European racing scene, going touring car racing would be so much easier. TCR is likely to become the standard for national touring car racing on the continent over the next 3 or so years, and it's customer car based - so they could make a profit and put their race cars in front of a lot of people.

[Giba]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the ACO didn't legalise diesel engines in P2 because they were worried that they would be much faster than the competition and for teams to be competitive they would need a diesel engine. But they didn't discount diesel engines in P2 in the future and so I think some data that Mazda are collecting from the diesel TUSCC program is helping to shape the diesel P2 regs.

However with the P2 engine regs likely to be changing for 2017 (and as of the last time it was reported in October time on DSC and S365, it's not sure by how much) and no sign of any customers in 2015, I doubt that they would be any customer Mazda engines in 2016 if there is a change in engine regs for 2017.

Overall, those past two paragraphs were a long way of saying that I doubt we will see any customer Mazda diesel P2 engines until 2017. Shame really

[BullMan]

ACO legalized diesel engines in LMP2 specifically for Mazda to come and race LM24 in 2013, but they never showed, so ACO banned them again.

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

And remember it was supposed to be a Dempsey Lola-Mazda which was going to be entered, no doubt influencing their decision...

[TF110]

you guys are speaking as if Mazda is some poor lowly company, struggling to get by. Operating profits from the 3rd quarter alone were over half a billion dollars. They have the expertise to do a LM program. The money and talent is there, its the willingness to do it that seems to be lacking!

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by TF110

you guys are speaking as if Mazda is some poor lowly company, struggling to get by. Operating profits from the 3rd quarter alone were over half a billion dollars. They have the expertise to do a LM program. The money and talent is there, its the willingness to do it that seems to be lacking!

How is the talent there exactly? Mazda hasn't done any high-tech motorsport in ages, I don't see them having the resources of fielding a LMP1 car in the forseeable future.

Their LMP experience is limited to LMP2 in TUSCC and that project hasn't exactly set the world on fire to say the least.

Building a competitive LMP1 is a very complicated process that requires serious resources both in terms of money and brain power. Porsche built a completely new factory complex for the 919 and hired personal from all over the motorsports world, including Formula One.

TMG had a F1-sized factory complex and plenty of F1-experienced staff members at their disposal to get their project off the ground. That is the kind of resources that are required to go factory LMP1 racing, especially looking at the insane amount of competition new manufacturers are facing now.

So it's not just about spending 75 million dollars a year. That's the number for Toyota because all the base ingredients they needed were already there. A manufacturer like Mazda, who would need to start with a completely blank sheet of paper, would be looking at entirely different numbers and plenty of risk, especially considering the quality of competition that's out there.

[TF110]

No one suggested thats the entire cost from start to finish. I used it as an example of how the biggest manufacturer in the world can make a car work and win on a relatively cheap budget. Mazda dont have to invest large sums of money into a program like Audi or Nissan. There's plenty of options like customer chassis' waiting to be picked up. Theres even whole teams ready for a manufacturer to sign up with them! With all the comments on this forum giving examples of rebadging, its not out of the realm of possibility.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

No one suggested thats the entire cost from start to finish. I used it as an example of how the biggest manufacturer in the world can make a car work and win on a relatively cheap budget. Mazda dont have to invest large sums of money into a program like Audi or Nissan. There's plenty of options like customer chassis' waiting to be picked up. Theres even whole teams ready for a manufacturer to sign up with them! With all the comments on this forum giving examples of rebadging, its not out of the realm of possibility.

If you want to win and be competitive you have to spend big money. Even with a turn key project from a respectable manufacture. Just look at the Strakka Dome partnership!

The only reason why the Toyota TS040 works as well as it does, is because of it's design and development is made in a top end facility only matched by Porsche, Audi and likely Nissan. And that facility is probably the most expensive cost in the whole program.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

Mazda dont have to invest large sums of money into a program like Audi or Nissan.

Erm, yes they do, if they want to have a modicum of success. I know it's pleasing to think to TMG as "The Little Factory Team That Could," but that ignores the fact that they didn't start from scratch, which Mazda would be doing if they enter LMP1-H. In fact they'd still need to ramp up development & resources just for the SkyActiv P2, such has been its lack of pace.

As for rebadging, etc., those deals aren't done for free. So yet again significant sums of money are involved - not as much as the above examples, but then there isn't as much prestige to gain.

[TF110]

No, they dont have to do the same thing Porsche or whoever does. There are already established bases of operation they can use. Why do they have to go the same route as the other teams? They can link up with Oreca, or Ligier. They can contact Dome. They could even use TMG if they wanted to! And I didnt ever say TMG was a "little team that could". They have a relatively little budget, though.

This isnt f1 where hundreds of millions of dollars are needed to gain a couple tenths with front wing flaps. Whats prestige? Mazda didnt build the 787 on their own. Audi used outside sources to construct their R18, their flywheel was made by Williams. Nissan is rumored to be using forsythe racing's old home. Why couldnt Mazda go with Speedsource then? That takes money, but nothing like building TMG or what Porsche and Audi are doing with a brand new facilities.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

No, they dont have to do the same thing Porsche or whoever does. There are already established bases of operation they can use. Why do they have to go the same route as the other teams? They can link up with Oreca, or Ligier. They can contact Dome. They could even use TMG if they wanted to! And I didnt ever say TMG was a "little team that could". They have a relatively little budget, though.

This isnt f1 where hundreds of millions of dollars are needed to gain a couple tenths with front wing flaps. Whats prestige? Mazda didnt build the 787 on their own. Audi used outside sources to construct their R18, their flywheel was made by Williams. Nissan is rumored to be using forsythe racing's old home. Why couldnt Mazda go with Speedsource then? That takes money, but nothing like building TMG or what Porsche and Audi are doing with a brand new facilities.

I'm sorry to say, you miss the point.

Out sourcing parts is cheaper, yes. However it is a lot more difficult to incorporate into your design, than if you build it yourself. Also you don't have the complete control over the quality used in these parts and therefor run a huge performance and reliability risk by outsourcing (see JJ Letho's crash at Le Mans in '99, and Peugeot's titanium connecting rods).
A good overall example of how hard it is to outsource/partner a development of a new prototype on a small budget is Rebellion/Oreca and Strakka/Dome. The cars have the potential, yes. But they will never be able to match what a complete in-house project can do.

But even outsourcing, cost a lot, and there is no way that you can outsource a complete car, able to match Audi, Porsche, Toyota and Nissan, with a budget similar to Toyota's operations budget. Remember Toyota doesn't need to rent a Simulator to do track testing, they don't need to rent a windtunnel and they don't need to contact a third party to make their carbon fibre. All this can be done with their current facilities, which isn't a part of their budget.
As far as we know, Mazda has none of these facilities, and not even all F1 teams have those facilities!
If you want to match Audi, Porsche, Toyota and Nissan - you need to match their budgets and their facilities (outsourced, or not).

[Speed-King]

And finally, the budget needed for a LMP1 program would eat up a significant chunk of that quarter billion surplus Mazda have managed to earn last year - what return would they get for that? And do they perhaps have more urgent needs like developing new models, retooling factories, etc?

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

And finally, the budget needed for a LMP1 program would eat up a significant chunk of that quarter billion surplus Mazda have managed to earn last year - what return would they get for that? And do they perhaps have more urgent needs like developing new models, retooling factories, etc?

You hit the right spot… What return????

I believe they can do an LMP1 program with some success, but to do that they need to at least:

a) 3 years experience.

b) The absence of Audi, Porsche ,Toyota and Nissan.

c) Find a new technology better than the current one´s.

But this is just my humble opinion :-)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by CTD

I'm sorry to say, you miss the point.

Out sourcing parts is cheaper, yes. However it is a lot more difficult to incorporate into your design, than if you build it yourself. Also you don't have the complete control over the quality used in these parts and therefor run a huge performance and reliability risk by outsourcing (see JJ Letho's crash at Le Mans in '99, and Peugeot's titanium connecting rods).
A good overall example of how hard it is to outsource/partner a development of a new prototype on a small budget is Rebellion/Oreca and Strakka/Dome. The cars have the potential, yes. But they will never be able to match what a complete in-house project can do.

But even outsourcing, cost a lot, and there is no way that you can outsource a complete car, able to match Audi, Porsche, Toyota and Nissan, with a budget similar to Toyota's operations budget. Remember Toyota doesn't need to rent a Simulator to do track testing, they don't need to rent a windtunnel and they don't need to contact a third party to make their carbon fibre. All this can be done with their current facilities, which isn't a part of their budget.
As far as we know, Mazda has none of these facilities, and not even all F1 teams have those facilities!
If you want to match Audi, Porsche, Toyota and Nissan - you need to match their budgets and their facilities (outsourced, or not).

This discussion is getting nowhere it seems. Not sure how my words are being misconstrued, but they obviously aren't getting across the way theyre intended to. First we go from their talent to then talking about they have no money to they are going to outsource everything. Oreca, Dome just to name two, design and construct their own cars. If a manufacturer comes along and pairs up with them, theyll obviously bring in people from their company. It seems people are complicating the processes just to make it seem none of the ideas that exist would work. Well I dont believe that and there are plenty of instances that show its plausible. Recent examples as well.

[TF110]

Has anyone else heard the rumor about Sutil approaching an lmp1 team with his sponsors to run a third car? If true theres only two teams that fit the bill, Toyota and Rebellion. The others (besides Kolles) already have third cars lined up. Unless its for an established car looking to gain a seat.

[Deleted]

Actually in the RLM F1 season review of which I somehow managed to catch a glimpse Hindy&Daman said that some manufacturer/manufacturers may have considered running third car for full season because of Adrian's proposed cash. So that describtion would fit all works teams

[deggis]

I seriously doubt his sponsor money would make the difference between 3rd Toyota or no 3rd Toyota i.e. I doubt couple of millions is enough. Can not be assumed that he would bring exactly as much cash as he did in F1.

[porman]

http://autoexpress.co.uk is reporting the upcoming 991 GT3 RS will have a new engine that will eventually filter down to other variants. I was under the impression that Porsche was waiting for the new 2016 regulations before investing in a new motor that would serve as the homologation basis for their GT effort.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by porman

http://autoexpress.co.uk is reporting the upcoming 991 GT3 RS will have a new engine that will eventually filter down to other variants. I was under the impression that Porsche was waiting for the new 2016 regulations before investing in a new motor that would serve as the homologation basis for their GT effort.

Still some doubt over this. I have conflicting reports. It's not clear whether it is really a new engine. Lets wait and see.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by TF110

Has anyone else heard the rumor about Sutil approaching an lmp1 team with his sponsors to run a third car? If true theres only two teams that fit the bill, Toyota and Rebellion. The others (besides Kolles) already have third cars lined up. Unless its for an established car looking to gain a seat.

He's definitely been talking to Porsche about a seat in their 3rd car (Porsche admitted to having talks), so Sutil would also be talking to Nissan as well.


To be honest, I see him replacing Nissan-bound Heidfeld in Rebellion's lead car.

[porman]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Still some doubt over this. I have conflicting reports. It's not clear whether it is really a new engine. Lets wait and see.

I too question the validity of this news. The supposed interview with Wolfgang Hatz during the Detroit show is a bit puzzling to say the least. In Porsche marketing speak an enlarged 4 liter version of the current GT3 motor might well be this "new engine." There are so many variables that would make one presume that there is not going to be a true new design for the time being. Perhaps what powers the upcoming 911R will shed some light on the situation. What really has me is the homologation requirements and the rules for 2016.

Is Porsche really going to turn up the wick come 2016 in GT with the associated costs, or are they going to continue to rely on BOP adjustments. Even if they are successful in pressuring the FIA will they really make such an investment if it all comes to not with BOP adjustments? I'm waiting for a foundation in the 2016 rules before I can even begin to make an educated guess.

[FIRE]

New Dutch Le Mans entry next year?

Frits van Eerd, who runs the family owned Jumbo supermarket chain (2nd largest of the Netherlands) wants to race at Le Mans. In the past few years he took part in Dakar rally and now he wants to race in Le Mans 24 Hours. In the past he was sponsor for Racing for Holland.

[Deleted]

If V8 Racing/SRT gets an entry for the old C6.R that would be Dutch team right there. Or just rent ride anywhere else.

Regarding Sutil and his cash, I would think that "couple of millions" (not 7-8? he brings to F1) would still fund third Toyota - or fourth car in case of Audi - for LM-only. But I doubt he would just like to do one-offs