Driver Training

Airhead · 23 Oct 2002, 11:46 (Ref:411127)

I went and spent the day yesterday doing a work paid for advanced/defensive driver training course.

The context is that the gov. authority I work for stretches some 370 kilometres from one end to the other and another 200 inland. So some of us spend a bit of time travelling.

I thought I was OK on the driving front. Mainly because I ride a motorcycle. My elitism being due to observation and reaction skills. Well, I learnt heaps. The idea of practicing emergency stops is not new to me - I do so on my motorcycle. But not in the car. The day was spent on emergency braking, steering and then the two together.

The braking was done with the ABS functional and disabled. All the practices were at highway speeds.

Boy, this was good.

I have wanted to undertake the training to get my instructors licence for motorcycles. Yesterday confirmed my belief that such a thing is worth doing.

Buckshot · 25 Oct 2002, 02:07 (Ref:412821)

Where abouts did you do your course Moff ?

903cc · 25 Oct 2002, 08:17 (Ref:412935)

I agree. I did one a couple of years ago at Oran Park and it was the smartest thing I have done. It gets you out of some bad habits!

Airhead · 25 Oct 2002, 08:59 (Ref:412953)

Buck the course was held on a closed section of the old Pacific Highway near Port Macquarie.

The instructors were from an organisation called Wheel Skills. I have met one of them before as I have wanted to get my motorcycle instructors licence and have talked to him about this.

The course was a cut down version of their usual two day affair. Held on one day. I thought it was fantastic. They teach a push - pull method of steering used by all the emergency services personel. This took some getting used to after 23 years of driving.

Alan Jones · 25 Oct 2002, 09:06 (Ref:412960)

Gee i'd love to do one of those courses. When steering in a straight line did they reccomend the 10 to 2 position ?

Airhead · 25 Oct 2002, 09:40 (Ref:412983)

Yes basically 10 to 2.

Amaroo Park · 25 Oct 2002, 10:30 (Ref:412992)

Has anyone here read Drive To Survive by Frank Gardner? Quite good and a lot of stuff they do on the driving courses is from the Gardner book.

**garcon** · 25 Oct 2002, 10:52 (Ref:413010)

Dunno if it's published in Oz, but we (the IAM in the UK) use a book called 'Roadcraft'. It's also used by the police to teach officers how to drive properly before they can do the fun response/pursuit stuff.

elephino · 29 Oct 2002, 10:24 (Ref:416250)

Funny thing is, I did the BMW course about 18 months ago. They taught 9 and 3 for holding the wheel and hand over hand compared to push pull. Both work, but personally I prefer BMWs suggestion.

Airhead · 29 Oct 2002, 10:26 (Ref:416251)

I've been trying the push pull for the last week, and in some situations it does feel strange, like lower speeds in parking lots. Hand over hand I'll have to try tomorrow.

elephino · 29 Oct 2002, 10:32 (Ref:416253)

I use both depending on the situation. At parking speeds, it's a lot quicker to go hand over hand but, having been at the RTA today, it seems to be what is being taught to students (my teacher taught hand over hand, but probably because I used it first). On that subject, there are some bad teachers out there. Saw one girl backing into a space. She turned the wheel (push pull), then moved the car, then stopped, turned the wheel, moved again, etc. Took her a good minute or more and she was the only one in the lot. Nothing against the student, but the teacher doesn't seem up to scratch if that is considered acceptable.

DAVID PATERSON · 5 Nov 2002, 04:51 (Ref:421932)

In Frank Gardner's book he said that most of the advanced driving courses are run by people who couldn't cut it at race driving. I have the book, it is brilliant. He reccommends 9 and 3 and I agree with him, if you leave your hands at 10 and 2 for a prolonged period, your arms get tired and before long, you've only got one hand on the wheel. I can drive all day with both hands on the wheel if I leave them at 9 and 3 and just bring them up to 10 and 2 for tricky corners.

I use both push/pull and hand over hand. Peter Brock reccommends hand over hand, but the downside of that is that if half way around the corner, you suddenly need more lock, then you'll also need to be a contortionist.

Airhead · 7 Nov 2002, 09:14 (Ref:423602)

I've sort of got used to the push pull thing now, and for most driving situations it's fine.

elephino · 7 Nov 2002, 10:36 (Ref:423661)

David, if you need a contortionist when you need more lock, then you're not doing it right. According to BMW, always have the hands on 9 and 3 when on the wheel. And by that I mean on the wheel itself when straight 9 and 3 wherever they are until it gets to 12 or 6 (approx.) and take the hand off and move it around onto the same point of the wheel as it comes around. It's easier to show than explain.

I've also done a AAMI under-25 driver training course. The only thing I learnt was that my car can stop from 40km/h in approximately 6m. Everything else was pointless, wrong, useless or just simple scare tactics. For instance they did a braking and lane changing move. The first run through they give you 1 second warning...now that is 1 second before you are upon the cones. This means that you'll hit the cones no matter what. Doing this and, obviously, hitting the cones, I was asked what went wrong. So I replied that I was on top of the cones before the call was made to turn (ignoring that it wasn't even 1 second between the call and cones). Come to think of it, I don't think they liked me because I knew too much. When asked to brake in the very first exercise, I hit the brakes as hard as possible and let the ABS run riot. This meant a nice short stopping distance whereas they expected people to brake as if on the road. This gives them a line a few minutes later in the classroom about braking distances being really really big as though that is the best that can be done.

I was in fact told that the aim of the day, to a certain extent, was to hit the cones. The BMW training, the aim was to learn not to hit the cones. One pass on the brake and lane-change one I was given 3 seconds warning at 40km/h. I had enough time to signal, check my mirrors, have a nap and then change lanes. What does that really teach? More warning, more time. You don't need to drive anywhere to teach that.

The very last thing done, I got to upset them a little. I was doing too well, not hitting things enough and all that. So another run at just braking but this time at some cones. I missed the cones

Airhead · 7 Nov 2002, 10:48 (Ref:423672)

Elephino

You obviously know not to look at them. In the real world this is the hardest part. To look where you want to go.

DAVID PATERSON · 8 Nov 2002, 03:52 (Ref:424296)

Elephino, you misunderstood my post. I was saying that hand over hand requires you to be a contortionist if you suddenly need more lock, when you've already got plenty wound on. What you described is the push pull method, which is slower, but leaves you always ready and able to react.

Crash Test · 8 Nov 2002, 03:59 (Ref:424306)

Have a look at most incar cameras- 9 to 3.

Also 9 to 3 helps if your airbag goes off- with 10 to 2 there is a chance of your arms being smashed by the inflating bag...

Maisie · 8 Nov 2002, 10:14 (Ref:424466)

I remember when I was learning to drive being taught the push pull method, which I mostly still use today. As far as I recall, the reason this method was said to be better was that you always have your hands on or near the steering wheel, rather than off to move your hand round it, so that if anything unexpected happened, it was no problem to grab the wheel tightly.

mtpanorama · 8 Nov 2002, 11:13 (Ref:424499)

I will have to pay more attention to the way i drive. I cant remember what method of steering i use. Just grab the thing and hang on.

Im pretty sure i use the hand over hand method. I havnt managed to hit anything (yet), so i must be doing ok.
After 4 driver training days to get my CAMS licence i do remember the seating position and where the apex is, which is always fun to do on the road to pass away the time.
About 9.30 and 2.30 work well for me on the wheel

Crash Test · 8 Nov 2002, 11:14 (Ref:424500)

Then get them blown off by the airbag

elephino · 8 Nov 2002, 11:24 (Ref:424502)

I said I didn't explain it well.

Basically the right hand starts at 3, moves over the top to about 10 at which time your left hand is grabbing the wheel at about 3 (which is 9 when the wheel is straight). This means your hands will only ever touch the wheel at the positions of 9 and 3 (when the wheel is straight).

mtpanorama · 8 Nov 2002, 11:41 (Ref:424515)

And i was being a smartarse with my 9.30. 2.30 position. We all know that one hand at 12 and the other on the window sill is the best driving position.

Airhead · 8 Nov 2002, 12:01 (Ref:424523)

It's definitely the coolest driving position,

Neil C · 8 Nov 2002, 19:33 (Ref:424789)

Crash, I agree. Since the advent of airbags, the conventional wisdom has switched from 10-2 to 9-3. My only question is that a.m. or p.m.?

Airhead · 8 Nov 2002, 23:12 (Ref:424881)

Daylight saving time?

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