Audi LMP1 Discussion

[manthey]

seems Vw has decided...will enter in WRC from 2012...any consequence-effect for track campaign?

http://www.motorsport-aktuell.com/au...m-2928055.html

[Lola T70]

as much as the VW Rally Raid and Dakar programme had an effect.

[TF110]

Maybe lighter than a bunch of batteries, true, but not light enough for Williams to use it in F1. LeMans could be a different story. I don't see it being the norm though. Battery technology is farther along than the flywheel is. With the amount of teams that could use 'KERS' i doubt the Flywheel will be the choice, which is what I meant.

[Captain Spyro]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

as much as the VW Rally Raid and Dakar programme had an effect.

The only effect I see is the end of the Dakar program itself. Le Mans will no doubt continue, but with a lack of competitors in Dakar, VW was already rumored to be leaving the desert special after 2011 anyway.

In the Dakar, the only other diesel competitor, BMW, wasn't heavily supported by the factory. The other heavy-hitters (Mitsubishi, Nissan, Hummer) are mainly privateer entries and lack the pace and reliability over the whole two weeks.

[chernaudi]

In his piece on the Peugeot 90X at Speed.com, Marshall Pruett makes reference to the Audi R18 maybe using similarly sized front and rear tires, a la Acura ARX-02, and that there may be a 2011 incarnation of the Audi R15, nicknamed the "plus-plus", that uses it's rear wheels and tires up front.

I don't know the point of the wide tired R15, unless Audi is still preparing for the possiblity that the R15 will run at least some ALMS races next year, or to test for the R18.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by TF110

Maybe lighter than a bunch of batteries, true, but not light enough for Williams to use it in F1. LeMans could be a different story. I don't see it being the norm though. Battery technology is farther along than the flywheel is. With the amount of teams that could use 'KERS' i doubt the Flywheel will be the choice, which is what I meant.

Wasn't the F! flywheel a pure mechanical think with a IVT incorporated( only for the system)... TSHSE(the stupidest hybrid system ever)... while collecting energy it also adds a lots of parasitic load.

The Porsche thing is different... its a battery replacement/generator... i'm no big fun of KERS either, batteries should prevail... OTOH thermal dynamic recovery by exhaust gas pressure (heat and pressure) is a very good alternative to generate electricity also.

BMW "efficient dynamics" employs something on the method.

[TF110]

Those 'regen' properties are rumored to be in future F1 rules. Not sure if the ACO will follow suit, or if F1 will even go this route.

[yamato]

yeah, I belive heat energy recovery is strictly forbidden in the curent rules.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by yamato

yeah, I belive heat energy recovery is strictly forbidden in the curent rules.

KERS in both F1 and in Le Mans 2011, can and is energy collected from brake heat.

[TF110]

Lots of heat is lost from the engines, and exhaust systems. There are lots of technologies to recover energy, they won't use but a couple.

[chernaudi]

Dygas at Speed confirms that Audi may not enter the R18 at Sebring, and will stick with updated R15s at Sebring. The updates, as Pruett suggested, will focus around wider front wheels and tires.

The R18 may have it's race debut at Spa in May, while Audi will launch the car next month according to the Zhuhai press release.

[Acid09]

The man's name is Dagys...

That's not exactly good news for Audi, if the R18 dosen't debut before late December it means that Peugeot is over five months ahead of them in terms of development & testing.

They may end up with the same problems as 2009, coming to Le Mans with a barely tested and raced car.

[gucom]

Draft 4 of the 2011 rules also allows the heat from exhaust fumes as a source for energy recovery. A press release from Le Mans week said that recovery of energy from the dampers would also be allowed, but I don't see anything about that in the rules.

Are there any road cars using exhaust heat for hybrid systems? That could be a very interesting technology cross-over for manufacturers as well...

[JAG]

I presume it's not going to be a grandfathered car so would need the new engine and aero.

Once the R18 debuts will the updated R15+ be made available to privateers?

[Sellysell]

Originally Posted by JAG

I presume it's not going to be a grandfathered car so would need the new engine and aero.

Once the R18 debuts will the updated R15+ be made available to privateers?

i think that was there plan before but nobody could afford them and something about not meeting funding requirements

[chernaudi]

The updated R15 was probably intended for the ALMS next year. Whether that will happen or not is speculation, but is very unlikely now, as Audi have the cars and money, but don't have a deal with a team to enter the car and Audi and AOA haven't signed off on the funding.

Right now, the R15 will be used to test bits for the R18 related to the wide tire deal, and be a back up car for if the R18 hits a major snag in testing. The R18, for all we know, has probably tested. What Audi told Dagys about the R18 to be tested before Christmas could be a smoke screen--it seems that Audi has had the R18's mechanicals being dyno tested for a while now. Both Audi and Peugeot have been dyno testing engines and gearboxes since probably before Le Mans for all we know.

Just because Peugeot have had a test mule testing since at least September, if not perhaps earlier, doesn't mean that Audi is that far behind. Audi has also had the first R18 T-car at an advanced stage of construction since September as well it seems. And if the wide tires work on the R15, it should work on the R18, as it should be even more well suited due to weight distribution.

And if Bruno Famin is to be believed, the 90X won't look a lot different externally compared to the test car, but there are technical issues that still need to be resolved and decided upon. It seems that from the jist of various sources that Audi may have a package decided upon, and only need to build up the car and test it.

And besides, if Audi plan to publically launch the R18 next month, the car will have had to have done some testing before then, which is why the November rumor is more likely from what I've read. It also can't take too much to update the R15 to wide front wheels/tires as well--Audi does seem to have the front fender bulged to be detatchable, and probably know what the wide tires will do as far as suspension and such. Remember, there've been rumors that the R15 was testing wide fronts since at least the Sebring test in March.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by gucom

Draft 4 of the 2011 rules also allows the heat from exhaust fumes as a source for energy recovery. A press release from Le Mans week said that recovery of energy from the dampers would also be allowed, but I don't see anything about that in the rules.

Are there any road cars using exhaust heat for hybrid systems? That could be a very interesting technology cross-over for manufacturers as well...

A quick note in this thread ( off topic but... i'm always doing it )... but i believe draft 4 foresees the possibility of all type of energy recuperation except hydraulic methods, and except on curves when using brakes(the driver help bs)... motoring back excludes also hydraulic (THE BEST POSSIBLE OUT THERE) and "Stirling" kind of motors... better! motoring back MUST always be by ELECTRIC means(when i would buy an hybrid it will be hydraulic(among other) for sure)

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by hcl123

A quick note in this thread ( off topic but... i'm always doing it )... but i believe draft 4 foresees the possibility of all type of energy recuperation except hydraulic methods, and except on curves when using brakes(the driver help bs)... motoring back excludes also hydraulic (THE BEST POSSIBLE OUT THERE) and "Stirling" kind of motors... better! motoring back MUST always be by ELECTRIC means(when i would buy an hybrid it will be hydraulic(among other) for sure)

Please don't intentionally take a thread off topic.

It is not only annoying for others who come to the thread, but also it is proven to drive people away from forums.

Now back to your regularly scheuled programming.

[Aysedasi]

OK, I'll allow you one off-topic! (But you won't 'always be doing it.....' )

[chernaudi]

I find it interesting that Audi is using the R15 to test the wide tire idea for the R18--that shows that weight distribution wise that the R15 probably isn't too far off the R18, and Audi is aiming to the R8's handling dynamics back with the R18. They got close at times with that on the R10 and the R15, but could never really get 100% the feel that they wanted, at least on a consistant basis.

Marshall said after LM that the R15 had grip problems in slow corners, and it seems that Audi know that if the tires are built for the job, that it can fix a lot of that issue on the R15, and that if anything, it should work better on the R18, as its designed for the wider tires from the outset.

Also, in this instance for both Audi and maybe Peugeot, they don't need to run a hydrualic power steering system. Audi fixed their electonic power steering issues at LM '09 by sending more power to the unit, and the issue was solved. I wonder if Peugeot used EPS in the 908, if it was run by hydrualics like the paddle shifter system (I'm guessing hydrualics because the hydrualic system had to be rebuilt on one car at Sebring after a power steering failure)?

We really don't know what either Audi or Peugeot are doing. The 90X test car could just be an old 908 tub with the 90x's bodywork and powertrain in it. Or Peugeot can be using old molds and construction techniques updated for the smaller car and canibalizing the best bits of the 908's chassis. It seems that Audi is doing the same with the R15--updating it to cure an issue, and at the same time gathering data for the new car. And with the issues that Audi had with the R15 it's whole life, I'd bet for the R18 to look a bit more conventional than either version of the R15--the 90X hasn't evolved insanely far from the 908 design wise, and that's probably the mistake that Audi made with the original R15--it deviated too far from the R8/R10 areo and suspension design.

And this is a question for the R18 and 90x in general, but will either Audi or Peugeot use zero-keel front suspension on the new cars? Audi has used zero keel on the R15, but it seems that the jury is out on how well it worked.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

We really don't know what either Audi or Peugeot are doing. The 90X test car could just be an old 908 tub with the 90x's bodywork and powertrain in it. Or Peugeot can be using old molds and construction techniques updated for the smaller car and canibalizing the best bits of the 908's chassis.

Given that Mulsanne Mike estimated a 90X wheelbase some 150mm shorter than the 908's, it sounds to me like they are using a different tub, unless all the wheelbase change comes from repositioning the rear suspension as a result of the new drivetrain design?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by cmk

Given that Mulsanne Mike estimated a 90X wheelbase some 150mm shorter than the 908's, it sounds to me like they are using a different tub, unless all the wheelbase change comes from repositioning the rear suspension as a result of the new drivetrain design?

Take it to the 90X thread (but yes, you do also need a new tub to fit a new engine)

[cmk]

Really? Individual Lola, Pescarolo and Zytek tubs have all been converted between P1 and P2 spec in the last few years...

What we probably need is a joint Audi/Peugeot in 2011 thread, because there is inevitably a lot of overlap in the discussion! Both of these cars are interesting because they are stacking up to the other.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by cmk

Really? Individual Lola, Pescarolo and Zytek tubs have all been converted between P1 and P2 spec in the last few years...

What we probably need is a joint Audi/Peugeot in 2011 thread, because there is inevitably a lot of overlap in the discussion! Both of these cars are interesting because they are stacking up to the other.

Yes, but they where made to adapt different engines, where as Peugeot and Audi tubs are specifically designed to the engines.

Well we do have the Le Mans 2011 Teams thread

[chernaudi]

If the Pug engine is a 90-100 degree V8, that shouldn't be a problem. Aside from mounting the oil tank on the front on the R10 and R15, the Audi LMP engines share a common design heritage with the Audi R8's V8--all had a 90 degree cylinder angle, uses similar mounting points and as Baretzky has admitted, share the same basic architecture.

Tub lenght doesn't determine wheelbase as much as the power train and suspension geometry--the Audi R15's V10 was about 4 inches shorter than the R10's V12, but the R15 has about a 3-4 inch longer wheelbase. Tub lenght was probably similar, and it's down to suspension geometry and the longer bellhousing on the R15's gearbox casing.