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Old 12 Dec 2014, 21:59 (Ref:3484514)   #526
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Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
Bernie wants V10's back. I know they sound great but is really the direction F1 should be going? Is he makjing noise to divert our attention from something else?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29626.html
Bernie really is full of it ... They all should have had this conversation way before the engine suppliers started to spend a penny on a new engine formula ..

Lift the development restrictions, allow the teams more that five PU's a season, lift the silly fuel limits and turn the engines up !

They sound fine in person, life aircraft coming up into turn one at COTA ..
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Old 12 Dec 2014, 22:18 (Ref:3484518)   #527
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Originally Posted by JeremySmith View Post
Bernie really is full of it ... They all should have had this conversation way before the engine suppliers started to spend a penny on a new engine formula ..

Lift the development restrictions, allow the teams more that five PU's a season, lift the silly fuel limits and turn the engines up !

They sound fine in person, life aircraft coming up into turn one at COTA ..
Hold on a minute!

You seem to be overlooking the fact that the idea to have these type of "power-units" came from the engine providers, most notably Renault. They had in effect threatened to withdraw from Formula 1 as an engine provider if the changes didn't happen (to "reflect" their road going engines), whilst Mercedes were muttering on the sidelines that they needed to illustrate to their directors that the new units would be far more fuel efficient than the then current V8s.

It was the engine suppliers that basically handed the FIA the concept of the new units, and, after some horse trading, the two sides together wrote the new rules/regulations.

As I wrote on another thread, Renault have been pretty quiet this season, and it is my belief that, if the FIA started to re-write the rules, they will abandon F1 entirely and that Mercedes may not stick around either. The suits in Stuttgart are, even now, looking very closely at their involvement in the sport.
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 00:02 (Ref:3484541)   #528
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Hold on a minute!

You seem to be overlooking the fact that the idea to have these type of "power-units" came from the engine providers, most notably Renault. They had in effect threatened to withdraw from Formula 1 as an engine provider if the changes didn't happen (to "reflect" their road going engines), whilst Mercedes were muttering on the sidelines that they needed to illustrate to their directors that the new units would be far more fuel efficient than the then current V8s.

It was the engine suppliers that basically handed the FIA the concept of the new units, and, after some horse trading, the two sides together wrote the new rules/regulations.

As I wrote on another thread, Renault have been pretty quiet this season, and it is my belief that, if the FIA started to re-write the rules, they will abandon F1 entirely and that Mercedes may not stick around either. The suits in Stuttgart are, even now, looking very closely at their involvement in the sport.
Wot he said^^

There is no turning back so BE had better get used to it as had the spectators and TV audience. The manufacturers wanted it and invested substantial amounts of folding bringing the motors into being. I think they might be suitably P'd off if all that was thrown out the window and they were told to start again.
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 01:13 (Ref:3484558)   #529
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Wot he said^^

There is no turning back so BE had better get used to it as had the spectators and TV audience. The manufacturers wanted it and invested substantial amounts of folding bringing the motors into being. I think they might be suitably P'd off if all that was thrown out the window and they were told to start again.
Not to mention the cost.
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 06:47 (Ref:3484599)   #530
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This why I said that Bernie is full of BS ... There is no going back and he needs to understand that is not going to happen ...
His main gripe is the sound which after hearing then in person I don't think there is a problem, if they can be made a little louder I won't complain but in person when they are racing I have no problem with the sound at all ..

Being critical at this stage just makes BE look rather silly ..
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 12:49 (Ref:3484673)   #531
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I really do not understand all of this talk of changing the engines and going back to V8's or V10's.
How/why would/should/could the manufacturers make this change? The regulations for power units were agreed by all concerned ready for the start of this season, but now, just because a certain team hasn't been able to enjoy the domination they've become accustomed to, they're crying & whinging insisting on change.
This would be just as sensible as banning all F1 teams from the championship if their factory wasn't in Milton Keynes!
It's not just the cost of the power units that would be different either. The whole car is designed around the PU, so changing the design of that would also require a complete redesign of the car too.
Instead of all this negativity, all the teams who aren't Mercedes should be devoting their energies into improving their packages so that they are able to compete (and hopefully beat) the team that got it right this year.
And finally, as to what logic there is in allowing Bernie to spout such anti propaganda about the sport/business he supposed to be the head promoter of, I really do not understand this at all unless all his agenda is based on getting himself as many column inches as possible. (I purposefully stopped myself from making a heightist based assumption there!)
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 13:03 (Ref:3484679)   #532
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What was the actual point of switching from V10's to V8's back in 2006? All it really did was incur massive costs for no real benefit.
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 16:27 (Ref:3484701)   #533
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Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
I really do not understand all of this talk of changing the engines and going back to V8's or V10's.
How/why would/should/could the manufacturers make this change? The regulations for power units were agreed by all concerned ready for the start of this season, but now, just because a certain team hasn't been able to enjoy the domination they've become accustomed to, they're crying & whinging insisting on change.
This would be just as sensible as banning all F1 teams from the championship if their factory wasn't in Milton Keynes!
It's not just the cost of the power units that would be different either. The whole car is designed around the PU, so changing the design of that would also require a complete redesign of the car too.
Instead of all this negativity, all the teams who aren't Mercedes should be devoting their energies into improving their packages so that they are able to compete (and hopefully beat) the team that got it right this year.
And finally, as to what logic there is in allowing Bernie to spout such anti propaganda about the sport/business he supposed to be the head promoter of, I really do not understand this at all unless all his agenda is based on getting himself as many column inches as possible. (I purposefully stopped myself from making a heightist based assumption there!)
You can take what Bernie says right now as his way of muddying the waters to raise tension, separate and divide people, and keep the attention away from issues that really matter.
The FIA have no intention of changing the engine rules.
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 19:48 (Ref:3484734)   #534
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
You can take what Bernie says right now as his way of muddying the waters to raise tension, separate and divide people, and keep the attention away from issues that really matter.
The FIA have no intention of changing the engine rules.
Indeed..Bernie should spend a little time talking about what's right about F1 for a change, his Sky interview at COTA was a disgrace..

For a new fan coming to the sport the messages he sends out are so negative and make him look stupid and out of touch..

Its hybrid technology the future and regardless of what he or anyone else thinks this technology is not going away any time soon, and neither should it...

Eat cake Bernie...
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 20:04 (Ref:3484740)   #535
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What was the actual point of switching from V10's to V8's back in 2006? All it really did was incur massive costs for no real benefit.
I never understood why either. The V10s offered a good balance between power and fuel consumption.
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Old 13 Dec 2014, 20:16 (Ref:3484745)   #536
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There's not much action in Formula 1 at the moment and Bernie did his bit to grab some attention.Seems to have worked.
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Old 14 Dec 2014, 01:32 (Ref:3484822)   #537
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I never understood why either. The V10s offered a good balance between power and fuel consumption.
Me either BJ!

Every time the field starts closing up and we get close racing, the big teams initiate change, and they obtain an advantage.
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Old 14 Dec 2014, 13:02 (Ref:3484917)   #538
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Originally Posted by JeremySmith View Post
Indeed..Bernie should spend a little time talking about what's right about F1 for a change, his Sky interview at COTA was a disgrace..

For a new fan coming to the sport the messages he sends out are so negative and make him look stupid and out of touch..

Its hybrid technology the future and regardless of what he or anyone else thinks this technology is not going away any time soon, and neither should it...

Eat cake Bernie...
Or something much more significant has happened.

The FIA have acquired a small share in F1, which is now valued at $120 million.
Bernie's recent conference on the change to V8 or V10 engines had him make some interesting comments about the strategy group.

He said he wasn't concerned about FIA opposition because when they set up the strategy group control the FIA sold them the rights (to regulate) for $40 million! And that was "the way we (FOM) thought it should be set up".

Which means the reason Todt has done so little about what is happening in F1 is because the FIA is no longer in charge of F1, the strategy group is....

That then is why the 3 amigo's on the outside (Sauber, Lotus, Force India) hit a nerve when they complained about a cartel. It is a cartel, but one sanctioned by the FIA who were told by the EU commission they were to regulate but not be commercially involved.
Now they own a piece of it, but have no power to regulate because they only hold 6 of the 18 votes......All they can do is rubber stamp the strategy group decisions....
So F1 is now a part of the FOM empire, it's really GP1.....

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29626.html
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Old 14 Dec 2014, 14:05 (Ref:3484941)   #539
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I never understood why either. The V10s offered a good balance between power and fuel consumption.
And if fuel efficiency is becomes less of a concern for both the manus and the public then going back to an older configuration of the v10s seems to be on the surface anyways the cheapest way forward.
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Old 14 Dec 2014, 19:45 (Ref:3485012)   #540
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And if fuel efficiency is becomes less of a concern for both the manus and the public then going back to an older configuration of the v10s seems to be on the surface anyways the cheapest way forward.
Pull out your old V10..... it would be cheaper, but is that going to do what Bernie wants. A 1000 hp engine...
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Old 14 Dec 2014, 20:58 (Ref:3485035)   #541
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Me either BJ!

Every time the field starts closing up and we get close racing, the big teams initiate change, and they obtain an advantage.
I thought the change was initiated by the FIA?
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Old 14 Dec 2014, 21:06 (Ref:3485038)   #542
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I thought the change was initiated by the FIA?
Not any more according to Bernie. He might think he has them over a barrel and he could be headed that way.
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Old 15 Dec 2014, 07:10 (Ref:3485127)   #543
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I thought the change was initiated by the FIA?
Nope the changes are rubber stamped by the FIA, basically what ended Ballestre's reign was the dispute over who made the rules.
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Old 15 Dec 2014, 11:08 (Ref:3485185)   #544
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Nope the changes are rubber stamped by the FIA, basically what ended Ballestre's reign was the dispute over who made the rules.
Ballestre's reign at FISA ended in 1991 and at the FIA in 1993, largely due to the repercussions of the Prost/Senna clash at Suzuka, in 1989. At the time, it was implied in the press, Ballestre was involved in manipulating the WDC in favour of Prost, as Senna was disqualified, fined and suspended. This was one issue that prompted Max Mosley's to run for the FISA presidency, which he won in 1991.

With regards to the switch from V10 to V8 in 2006, I thought this was a FIA initiave largely instigated by Mosley's drive, to make F1 engines more road relevant, hence 10-year freeze on the development of engines and the eventual introduction of Kers in 2009.
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Old 15 Dec 2014, 12:21 (Ref:3485204)   #545
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According to Auto Motor und Sport Formula One might introduce entirely new engine regulations in 2016. Because of the engine freeze, it has become pratically impossible for new engine manufacturers to enter Formula One and the new engines are considered to be not only expensive but also too complex. However, Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Renault do not want to give up on the hybrid engines, which are very relevant to them.

Interestingly, Mercedes-Benz denies the current engine regulations are too expensive. The German manufacturers states the current engines are merely three to four millions dollars more expensive than the 2,400 cc V8-engines.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...e-8968636.html
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Old 15 Dec 2014, 12:36 (Ref:3485208)   #546
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According to Auto Motor und Sport Formula One might introduce entirely new engine regulations in 2016. Because of the engine freeze, it has become pratically impossible for new engine manufacturers to enter Formula One and the new engines are considered to be not only expensive but also too complex. However, Mercedes-Benz, Honda and Renault do not want to give up on the hybrid engines, which are very relevant to them.

Interestingly, Mercedes-Benz denies the current engine regulations are too expensive. The German manufacturers states the current engines are merely three to four millions dollars more expensive than the 2,400 cc V8-engines.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...e-8968636.html
Only three to four millions dollars more expensive, thank heavens for small mercys.
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Old 15 Dec 2014, 19:37 (Ref:3485303)   #547
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There is to be a strategy group meeting on Thirsday and Bernie says he will propose ditching the current V6's for 1000hp V8's or V10's for 2016. He thinks if he gets 10 vote 6 of his plus 4 teams then he has a majority of the 18 votes.

However I don't think that is possible. The only definite vote he would appear to be Red Bull but that might not happen if Renault have something to say about it.

The others who vote are the FIA who will vote to keep the current engines otherwise their credibilty is completely shot.
Mercedes will vote to retain the current engines.
McLaren are most likely to vote for the current engines as Honda would not be in F1 otherwise.
Williams use Mercedes engines so I would expect them to vote with MB.
Ferrari for me is unknown as to what way the new managment will go.
The last team is either Lotus or Force India (I don't know when the change over happens for the 6th team) both of these teams will use MB engines next year and would expect them to lean towards their engine supplier, also Bernie is unlikely to be on their Christmas card list.

That means that there are only 7 who you would say favour changing the current engines. There are more likely to be at least 9 votes going the other way.
But you never know what will what can happen when Bernie starts to control a meeting.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29637.html
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Old 16 Dec 2014, 23:42 (Ref:3485640)   #548
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Question arising from the above article:

"One source said the FIA is even powerless to set a 'fixed price' of a customer V6."

The FIA would be able to set a maximum price for an engine? ???
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Old 17 Dec 2014, 02:15 (Ref:3485663)   #549
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Maybe its time to create a poll for this thread .....
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Old 17 Dec 2014, 02:16 (Ref:3485664)   #550
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Question arising from the above article:

"One source said the FIA is even powerless to set a 'fixed price' of a customer V6."

The FIA would be able to set a maximum price for an engine? ???
Apparently they could not do this because of agreements required of the majority of the teams and Bernie and apparently it the FIA is now toothless against the six teams and Bernie, plus it would violate agreements between the FIA and the manufacturers....

Joe Saward says the FIA is virtually powerless in the F1 Commission....


http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/...ames/#comments
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