Red Bull Unhappy

[Greem]

Ooh.

Not in F1's interest for DM to walk, is it? Not when there's a succession plan to be put together...

[chunterer]

Well I think there might well be a succession plan in place, at least as far as STR are concerned.

Someone, somewhere ios very keen for that team, to move up the rankings, otherwise why would all the separation from A team, major investment in staff and infrastructure have been going on?

Interesting times ahead.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Red Bull will stay in F1 as long as it suits their purpose and not a moment longer .

We can not afford more than one Ferrari ..

If Red Bull are unhappy they should pack up and leave, they won't be missed ..

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

I think Mateschitz is playing a classic Piranha Club move. He knows very well that F1 requires sharp elbows to be successful, and he's just deploying a pair to protect his investment. Equally, I think if he did fold up his tent over this one episode, the damage to his brand would be massive. It would make the Red Bull brand seem petulant and unable to stay the course. I think this is brinkmanship. I suspect that he knows that he's unlikely to win this battle, and faced with that, is going try and capitalize on that for maximum political effect so that he has a greater chance of getting his way in future.

These two posts sum up my thoughts. I particularly like the "we can't afford more than one Ferrari" line!

Richard

[chillibowl]

i think the greater fear for F1 is if RB feels sufficiently ****ed off that they take their money, their global PR network, their expertise etc etc to a different series.

for example if RB decided Formula E was the future i think F1 would have a real crisis of confidence on its hands.

[GT6]

They are already involved in other motorsport and with their sponsorship of Mr Webber and porsche they are already spending money elsewhere

[djinvicta]

Maybe Geri Halliwell will become their mascot...

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by GT6

They are already involved in other motorsport and with their sponsorship of Mr Webber and porsche they are already spending money elsewhere

true and im sure they would love to get their hands on money that used to be earmarked for F1.

actually RB leaving F1 could be the best thing that happened to motor sport in general in a long time.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

These two posts sum up my thoughts. I particularly like the "we can't afford more than one Ferrari" line!

Richard

The truth is you can't really afford even the one Ferrari, but you cant afford him to leave either.
Red Bull is unlikely to leave F1 if there is still 'sporting character' but they will if that dies completely. And if it does die completely Ferrari will not be able to save you...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The truth is you can't really afford even the one Ferrari, but you cant afford him to leave either.
Red Bull is unlikely to leave F1 if there is still 'sporting character' but they will if that dies completely. And if it does die completely Ferrari will not be able to save you...

I get what you are saying, but I don't quite think things are as bad as you think with respect to "sporting character". There has been and will continue to be some level of nefarious manipulation within racing by sanction bodies and the regulatory writers. I think there is some odd stuff happening right now in WEC regarding balancing of energy available to the cars that is potentially a slap in the face of Audi (and I say this not being an Audi fan at all). I think that is likely much more "back room" than than anything that RBR might be thinking is going on in F1 today. In short, I don't think there is an attempt to take RBR down a notch by the FIA. They are being treated no better or worse than anyone else as best as I can tell.

My main point in agreeing with the "one Ferrari" above is really that we don't want another player thinking it "is" a Ferrari when it's not. I am not a Ferrari fan at all, but I freely admit their value to F1. They bring a huge amount of eyeballs to the sport. Both in ticket sales and TV viewership. They are unfortunately truly unique and of critical value to "F1 as a business", or at least how we know F1 today. And while Ferrari will occasionally whine and moan and also throw around whatever weight they have (and it is significant), they generally stick to the sport through thick and thin at the end of the day.

I think the problem with RBR is that they don't have a deep history in the sport and other than dumping decent money into two teams, nothing is particularly special about them other than that they have had relatively great success within the short period. I think that quick success has created effectively a large organizational ego (if you can assign an ego to an organization). Maybe the ego has manifested itself within various people within RBR (Mateschitz, Marko and maybe Horner) and it has bloated their opinion regarding self importance to the sport beyond reality.

If RBR was to take their money and go elsewhere, I expect the things that make RBR "special" today would remain. The engineering staff, drivers, etc. would disperse and go elsewhere. Imagine no RBR, but with Vettel and Newey split up and working elsewhere. Sounds quite interesting to me actually.

Frankly, I will have a much deeper respect for RBR if they were to have to struggle through a season or two of poor results while still enjoying a wealth of money (Mateschitz) and talent (Newey, Vettel, etc.). Act like professionals, fight back and come out the other side as winners. My God think of the recent struggles of Williams. They don't have the resources of RBR, but I have the utmost respect for that team for continuing to pound away at trying to win.

The fact that things just haven't gone RBR's way a slight bit (we are only two races in) they threaten to leave the sport? It does nothing but leave a sour taste in my mouth. Now the saber rattling might just be them throwing their weight around. I hope that is the case, but if it really is ego problems, then I say pull the trigger now and don't tease us.

Richard

[chillibowl]

a couple of things that i would disagree with and possible rant alert!

RB's involvement in F1 and open wheel racing goes back further then them acquiring 2 teams.

their involvement extends beyond just running two teams through is young driver programs. i dont have any numbers but during their tenure they seem like they have helped more drivers in their careers then any other of the young driver programs out there.

they did struggle for several years as they built up Milton Keynes and then they started winning

they represent one of the only affordable consumer products being sold by an f1 team or its sponsor on the grid and have a bigger share of the 18-35 market then any other brand in f1. if they leave what is F1 selling?

if you ask any person under 35 which brand is more synonymous with sport im going to say 9 out of 10 would pick RB over Ferrari.

if RB left then in all likelihood its a an investment banking conglomerate that comes in to take their slots. for me i would rather another team that thinks its bigger than it is over anything the newcomers (with their complete lack of history) would bring.

hospitality at any race track is better served by RB then it is by Ferrari (or any other team for that matter). RB is for the people.

F1 isnt even bigger than its promoter let alone bigger than the team that has won 4 in a row.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

RB is for the people

Beg to differ: RB is about making money, pure and simple.

[chillibowl]

well thats true for most businesses and certainly true for every business involved in F1.

regardless though, RB could be the greediest company in the world they have still managed to make their brand a synonym for "sport' where as Ferrari is a synonym of 'luxury'.

for me im just as unwilling to buy and drink a can of RB as i am unable to afford a Ferrari, my point was that as a marquee i identify with the RB brand far more than i do with the Prancing Horse.

plus they bring better looking girls to the track which is really what matters.

[Knowlesy]

Interesting. For me Red Bull represents beanie hats, diabetes and poor personal hygiene. And to another person they probably represent something else entirely again!

But when it comes down to it they are a cold, cold business. They just achieve their aims in a different, but no less corporate, way than others.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

a couple of things that i would disagree with and possible rant alert!

You make good points, but regarding them struggling early on in F1...

I think that everyone that gets into the sport should expect a struggle to climb to the top. So they don't stand out in that respect.

Beating a dead horse now but my point is how do you act once you have been at the top, then slip and show weakness. I took a quick look at the teams who have won the constructors championship over the past few decades to see who did win, but then eventually lost the championship to someone else, then packed it in and left the sport. Nobody fits that bill. They either continue to persevere (Williams, McLaren, Ferrari, Brawn/Mercedes) or were kicked out against their wishes/reformed under new leadership (Renault/Lotus). Granted Ferrari has threatened to quit at times.

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I get what you are saying, but I don't quite think things are as bad as you think with respect to "sporting character". There has been and will continue to be some level of nefarious manipulation within racing by sanction bodies and the regulatory writers. I think there is some odd stuff happening right now in WEC regarding balancing of energy available to the cars that is potentially a slap in the face of Audi (and I say this not being an Audi fan at all). I think that is likely much more "back room" than than anything that RBR might be thinking is going on in F1 today. In short, I don't think there is an attempt to take RBR down a notch by the FIA. They are being treated no better or worse than anyone else as best as I can tell.

My main point in agreeing with the "one Ferrari" above is really that we don't want another player thinking it "is" a Ferrari when it's not. I am not a Ferrari fan at all, but I freely admit their value to F1. They bring a huge amount of eyeballs to the sport. Both in ticket sales and TV viewership. They are unfortunately truly unique and of critical value to "F1 as a business", or at least how we know F1 today. And while Ferrari will occasionally whine and moan and also throw around whatever weight they have (and it is significant), they generally stick to the sport through thick and thin at the end of the day.

I think the problem with RBR is that they don't have a deep history in the sport and other than dumping decent money into two teams, nothing is particularly special about them other than that they have had relatively great success within the short period. I think that quick success has created effectively a large organizational ego (if you can assign an ego to an organization). Maybe the ego has manifested itself within various people within RBR (Mateschitz, Marko and maybe Horner) and it has bloated their opinion regarding self importance to the sport beyond reality.

If RBR was to take their money and go elsewhere, I expect the things that make RBR "special" today would remain. The engineering staff, drivers, etc. would disperse and go elsewhere. Imagine no RBR, but with Vettel and Newey split up and working elsewhere. Sounds quite interesting to me actually.

Frankly, I will have a much deeper respect for RBR if they were to have to struggle through a season or two of poor results while still enjoying a wealth of money (Mateschitz) and talent (Newey, Vettel, etc.). Act like professionals, fight back and come out the other side as winners. My God think of the recent struggles of Williams. They don't have the resources of RBR, but I have the utmost respect for that team for continuing to pound away at trying to win.

The fact that things just haven't gone RBR's way a slight bit (we are only two races in) they threaten to leave the sport? It does nothing but leave a sour taste in my mouth. Now the saber rattling might just be them throwing their weight around. I hope that is the case, but if it really is ego problems, then I say pull the trigger now and don't tease us.

Richard

Oh I don't think RBR will leave. I think this will get sorted out whatever way and they will decide to stay.
And while I agree that Ferrari is something special from a historical perspective and that the general public perception is an asset to the sport, I think they play on it a bit too much and that some of the concessions made to them are out of order.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Interesting. For me Red Bull represents beanie hats, diabetes and poor personal hygiene.

i suppose it does at that!

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

...my point is how do you act once you have been at the top, then slip and show weakness.

true, how you act after winning is important. how you act while winning is also important which i must admit RB probably could have done better on both accounts.

i dont mean to make RB out as a altruistic corporation (although i think in their relatively short time in f1 they have given back a great deal - over that time perhaps more than the rest even) and for all i know the storm that DM is kicking up is just another way for them to flex some muscle while increasing their advertising profile. after all this is a cynical business.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

And while I agree that Ferrari is something special from a historical perspective and that the general public perception is an asset to the sport, I think they play on it a bit too much and that some of the concessions made to them are out of order.

I agree 100% on Ferrari being given too much power even with their special status.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I get what you are saying, but I don't quite think things are as bad as you think with respect to "sporting character". There has been and will continue to be some level of nefarious manipulation within racing by sanction bodies and the regulatory writers. I think there is some odd stuff happening right now in WEC regarding balancing of energy available to the cars that is potentially a slap in the face of Audi (and I say this not being an Audi fan at all). I think that is likely much more "back room" than than anything that RBR might be thinking is going on in F1 today. In short, I don't think there is an attempt to take RBR down a notch by the FIA. They are being treated no better or worse than anyone else as best as I can tell.

I think it is indeed "nefarious manipulation" that RBR is railing against.

For the record too, I believe that RBR would be only too happy to have some of the other teams more competitive and beating them on merit.
It is good for the interest in the sport and good for their business.

I think that Mercedes are doing an awesome job of getting on the page, and nobody needs or wants the sanctioning body manipulating results, it is bad, very bad for everyone and diminishes everything in the sport.

Suggesting that RBR get sloppy, sit on their hands and allow themselves to get beaten in order to gain respect is just sad.

Ferrari to me, are just one of the big four teams no more or less important than the others.
The thought that they are treated differently from the others is just plain unsporting, wrong and again bad for the sport!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think it is indeed "nefarious manipulation" that RBR is railing against.

Maybe they are, but I really am not sure. As much as I have given them (really Mateschitz) a hard time in the posts above, (maybe I am wrong as I haven't read every RBR press release, interview, etc.) but I don't think RBR is saying someone is out to get them. I think they are just saying that the entire fuel sensor situation is screwed up and is unacceptable.

When I used the phrase "nefarious manipulation", I meant it as whoever (FIA, stewards, etc.) that runs this entire show is abusing the system in hidden or underhanded ways to manipulate the results.

While occasionally regulations may be explicitly written to stop a given team, manufacture and/or technology (to many examples to list here), I personally don't think the fuel sensor regulations were purposefully written to create this problem and I don't think anyone is purposefully manipulating results in F1 today to satisfy private or public agendas.

Do I think something is wrong with the entire fuel sensor strategy as defined in the rules today? Yes. Do I think that some teams may perform better or worse due to some amount of randomness caused by sensor variability? Yes. Do I think there are a number of random factors that impact race results? Yes. Do I think the issues RBR bring up is being used to purposefully manipulate race results? No. Could they be used to manipulate the results? Yes (Along with a multitude of other ways that are not new).

Originally Posted by wnut

Suggesting that RBR get sloppy, sit on their hands and allow themselves to get beaten in order to gain respect is just sad.

Not sure if that was directed at me, someone else, or just a general comment. I don't think anyone is suggesting RBR is sitting on their hands.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Do I think something is wrong with the entire fuel sensor strategy as defined in the rules today? Yes. Do I think that some teams may perform better or worse due to some amount of randomness caused by sensor variability? Yes. Do I think there are a number of random factors that impact race results? Yes. Do I think the issues RBR bring up is being used to purposefully manipulate race results? No. Could they be used to manipulate the results? Yes (Along with a multitude of other ways that are not new).

Well then I guess we can understand why RBR feels victimized when they are disqualified on the basis of evidence furnished off a faulty sensor that was displaying "drifting" readings during the race.
Convenient when you think that RBR and F1 in general has been criticized for the fact that RBR has won the championship for the last 4 years.
This dominance is the fault of the competition not RBR!
This is further exacerbated by the double points being awarded in the last race.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Frankly, I will have a much deeper respect for RBR if they were to have to struggle through a season or two of poor results while still enjoying a wealth of money (Mateschitz) and talent (Newey, Vettel, etc.). Act like professionals, fight back and come out the other side as winners. My God think of the recent struggles of Williams. They don't have the resources of RBR, but I have the utmost respect for that team for continuing to pound away at trying to win.

The fact that things just haven't gone RBR's way a slight bit (we are only two races in) they threaten to leave the sport? It does nothing but leave a sour taste in my mouth. Now the saber rattling might just be them throwing their weight around. I hope that is the case, but if it really is ego problems, then I say pull the trigger now and don't tease us.

Richard

Given that RBR have managed to establish the team to be beaten, this seems to imply that they should sit on their laurels and let it all slip in order that they could establish your respect by coming from behind again!


Williams, to my way of thinking have created their own problems through not recognizing and rewarding the talent that has gone through their hands.
They seemed to be about making Frank and Patrick rich and investing in property.
They treated a number of drivers particularly very shabbily, and were largely the architects of their own problems.

Revolving door employers.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Well then I guess we can understand why RBR feels victimized when they are disqualified on the basis of evidence furnished off a faulty sensor that was displaying "drifting" readings during the race.

Playing fast and loose with the facts doesn't help you argue your points.

Originally Posted by wnut

Williams, to my way of thinking have created their own problems through not recognizing and rewarding the talent that has gone through their hands.

I generally agree with your comments about Williams causing there own problems. Do they blame others however?

Richard

[FAS33]

Redbull, it gives you whinge.

[mikuni]

People do love to hate Red Bull, I as much as many on here, but only because I can't help but sway towards the underdog. I cheered on Red Bull around 2008/9/10 when they were up and coming, but after 4 championship wins I seem to want them to be beaten, almost subconsciously.

That said, I think the issue they have now is purely a 'sporting' one in the true sense. Many of us stand by F1 despite it's known flaws, but we must look at the facts. The FIA mandating sensors that are known to have accuracy issues and are common to fault. As David Coulthard said in the weekend, an F1 car should not carry any sensor or other component that has a high risk of becoming faulty, despite what role it plays. I believe this is one of the issues RBR has exception to.

Then there are all the other things going on at the moment, both behind the scenes and on the race track. Penalties, sponsorship, rule changes, the list goes on. I can honestly see how a sponsor/owner pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into the championship could be disillusioned.

[wolfhound]

I liked RB up until a year or two ago but a number of things have started to make me rethink my view. Some of them are related to Horner and Ecclestones freindship.
RB's leaving FOTA and thereby breaking up the teams organisation.
RB getting a very good deal from Bernie.
All the complaining about tyres last year and then winning almost every GP when they got the tyres they wanted.
All the moaning about fuel flow sensors until they get the ones they want....
They are even complaining about rules they approved in relation to the unsafe relase at pit stops.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Playing fast and loose with the facts doesn't help you argue your points.

I generally agree with your comments about Williams causing there own problems. Do they blame others however?

Richard

Excuse me!?


http://www.pitpass.com/51146/Horner-confident-of-appeal-success

"Our whole case is on the fact of which reading is correct," said Horner. "We have a sensor that is drifting and isn't reading correctly versus a fuel rail that we know is calibrated and we know that hasn't varied throughout the weekend and has subsequently been checked and found to be not faulty and hasn't moved or varied at all since it was installed on the car prior to the weekend. "Our whole case is on the fact of which reading is correct," said Horner. "We have a sensor that is drifting and isn't reading correctly versus a fuel rail that we know is calibrated and we know that hasn't varied throughout the weekend and has subsequently been checked and found to be not faulty and hasn't moved or varied at all since it was installed on the car prior to the weekend."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns27586.html

"Ricciardo was excluded by the stewards because a mandatory flow sensor fitted to his car showed that its Renault engine broke the new rule limiting fuel consumption.
Red Bull's Dr Helmut Marko told Auto Bild: "The sensors are not accurate enough and we will prove it."

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns27616.html

"Until then, Horner said on Wednesday that the reigning world champions are convinced they did nothing wrong in Australia by ignoring Charlie Whiting's advice and following the actual technical regulations to the letter.
The Telegraph also quoted him as questioning the behaviour of other teams, who are buying "hundreds" of the FIA-approved fuel sensors and choosing only to use the ones that allow the best performance.

Continued problems for Red Bull with fuel flow sensor
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns27662.html

"The sensor failed early on, but the team avoided disqualification this time around by simply following the FIA's advice about how to comply with the rules in the absence of the troublesome Gill device."


Maldonado's sensor also failed in Malaysia apparently.


P.S. I try not to play fast and loose with the facts - this assertion is not appreciated.
If you feel any fact I have used is incorrect Richard please feel free to correct it. I have no agenda other than a better understanding of what goes on in F1.