Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by christcc2

bjohnsonsmith you're right. If you mention you like the characteristics of the Reynards from 1995-1999, you're scolded over at TrackForum.

That said, everyone is clamoring for a car (without outright admitting it) that has cues from what we know worked mechanically and aerodynamically (and looked fast), with an evolution to 2012.

Reynard, Lola, Swift and Penske knew what they were doing in the late 1990's. They were able to produce chassis' that out performed anything that IICS is using now.

Think about that. Over a decade ago, the cars performed BETTER than they do now.

Doesn't that seem backwards?

You're spot on, just the fact that the track record at Indy is still held by Arie Luyendyk in a Reynard says it all.

[Thundersports]

Yes sorry was getting confused with something else! I remember the Superleague cars still being built at the very first round at Donington and the chaps confirming to me they were Panoz tubs.

[jondownunder]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I think (unless I'm grossly missremembering) that the DP01's went to a private owner who was going to start a new series in the States for them? Guy who owned the Atlantic series when it sunk perhaps, Green Grand Prix or something maybe??

You're right, the DP01's were going to be used in GreenPrix USA run by Ben Johnston, alongside Reynard 2K chassis in a "class B".

Plus a few DP01s ended up in EuroBOSS and then BOSS GP.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Not wanting to dig up the past but Champ Car might have been wiser to let teams use either the Lola B03/00 or DP01, rather than going for one chassis.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I think it isn't showing off the new cars so much as proof of concept. The current ugly dallara can be made 3 ways ugly with different aero kits.
And the next dallara will be similar in that it will look different 3 ways around a fat slow awkward racing chassis.
the DP01s went to superleague or A1 didn't they? So as a spec series superleague and A1 are IRL sporting equivallents... randy you goofed not allowing other manufacturers

The superleague car has some DP01 inspiration but it's it's own car, the DP09.

Superleague to me works because it's got a great sound and the cars look great and race well. It doesn't aspire to be F1 so i'm fine with what it is with the sole car.

The irl is supposed to be the pinnacle of American open wheel racing, but it falls way short of that, obviously. You should have open competition.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

The superleague car has some DP01 inspiration but it's it's own car, the DP09.

Superleague to me works because it's got a great sound and the cars look great and race well. It doesn't aspire to be F1 so i'm fine with what it is with the sole car.

The irl is supposed to be the pinnacle of American open wheel racing, but it falls way short of that, obviously. You should have open competition.

Yes, there should be open competition but the argument is, it's not economically viable at the moment so we get a spec chassis with aero kits and a choice of engines.

The basic problem with IndyCar is there's no overall governing body. We've had USAC, then CART, then Tony George and now Ropin' Randy trying to round it all up and make sense of it all.

The reason F1 has done so well is because it has a governing body, the FIA but it didn't appear in it's present form overnight it took some years and negotiation to sort it out.


At the moment the current attempts to sorting out US open wheel racing is like a Band-Aid; temporary.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by christcc2

bjohnsonsmith you're right. If you mention you like the characteristics of the Reynards from 1995-1999, you're scolded over at TrackForum.

That said, everyone is clamoring for a car (without outright admitting it) that has cues from what we know worked mechanically and aerodynamically (and looked fast), with an evolution to 2012.

Reynard, Lola, Swift and Penske knew what they were doing in the late 1990's. They were able to produce chassis' that out performed anything that IICS is using now.

Think about that. Over a decade ago, the cars performed BETTER than they do now.

Doesn't that seem backwards?

It is.

However speeds back then were getting too high and while much a meal was made of Texas in 2001 by the tony george fan club, we reached a peak of what human performance and ability can do in a race car. It was a historical milestone in motorsport and far from any embarrassment.

There is no reason however not use to concepts that work from the 1990's.

Aero kits is not competition. A dullara is a dullara and is has set dimensions and abilities. There are only so many "concepts" that are going to be made to work with that one car and anyone that sells an aero kit has to get their aerodynamics to work with dullara's chassis and also have a competitive edge. I don't see it as either cost effective or profitable nor are you going to see anything radical. And is dullara really going to open source their whole car to all sorts of other random companies? I'm not buying that.

I bet 75% of this was just to make it look like the irl was going to be innovative and competitive, but really the scheme was all along for excuses and rationalization to come out and then everyone would be riding a dullarawagon again.

Unfortunately and I don't think people might appreciate this now, but CART in the 1990's was the peak and it's been downhill from there. Maybe a metaphor would be the Apollo space program. We got to the moon pretty quickly and brought technology a long way and that done, people were content with mediocrity and we've spent 40 years futzing around since.

It's very sad to me how lame, mediocre and irrelevant to the public this has all become. NOW I understand the old timers when they talk about how great the 60's and early 70's were and it makes me appreciate what we had in the 1990's.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

The Superleague cars (DP07) are pretty much the DP01's with an airbox for the V12. I think (unless I'm grossly missremembering) that the DP01's went to a private owner who was going to start a new series in the States for them? Guy who owned the Atlantic series when it sunk perhaps, Green Grand Prix or something maybe?? But yes, the A1GP car has between zero and nothing to do with the Panoz. Was designed by a new team in the UK (A1GP Technologies) next to the carbon business that built the tubs. Design process greatly simplified by borrowing a five-year-old Ferrari F1 design to start off with.

Some of the DP01's when to the Greenprix guy, but not all. He has a large stash of 2000's Reynards and I think a few Lolas.

To me it never had a hope of getting anywhere. He couldn't even keep Atlantics going.

That is correct about the A1 car, based on a 2004 Ferrari F1.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It is.

However speeds back then were getting too high and while much a meal was made of Texas in 2001 by the tony george fan club, we reached a peak of what human performance and ability can do in a race car. It was a historical milestone in motorsport and far from any embarrassment.

There is no reason however not use to concepts that work from the 1990's.

Aero kits is not competition. A dullara is a dullara and is has set dimensions and abilities. There are only so many "concepts" that are going to be made to work with that one car and anyone that sells an aero kit has to get their aerodynamics to work with dullara's chassis and also have a competitive edge. I don't see it as either cost effective or profitable nor are you going to see anything radical. And is dullara really going to open source their whole car to all sorts of other random companies? I'm not buying that.

I bet 75% of this was just to make it look like the irl was going to be innovative and competitive, but really the scheme was all along for excuses and rationalization to come out and then everyone would be riding a dullarawagon again.

Unfortunately and I don't think people might appreciate this now, but CART in the 1990's was the peak and it's been downhill from there. Maybe a metaphor would be the Apollo space program. We got to the moon pretty quickly and brought technology a long way and that done, people were content with mediocrity and we've spent 40 years futzing around since.

It's very sad to me how lame, mediocre and irrelevant to the public this has all become. NOW I understand the old timers when they talk about how great the 60's and early 70's were and it makes me appreciate what we had in the 1990's.

To be perfectly honest I and I get the same mediocre perspective on the F1 section of Ten-Tenths. It's as is if there wasn't anything pre the 1990s.

[christcc2]

Well said.

However don't go over to TrackForum and say this.

Though logical in response, you will get scolded as either as stuck in the past, or a CART lover that can't get over the fact that we're unified.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Yes, there should be open competition but the argument is, it's not economically viable at the moment so we get a spec chassis with aero kits and a choice of engines.

The basic problem with IndyCar is there's no overall governing body. We've had USAC, then CART, then Tony George and now Ropin' Randy trying to round it all up and make sense of it all.

The reason F1 has done so well is because it has a governing body, the FIA but it didn't appear in it's present form overnight it took some years and negotiation to sort it out.

At the moment the current attempts to sorting out US open wheel racing is like a Band-Aid; temporary.

You have to spend money to make money and after teams barf up for all of dallara's junk, aero kits and bits and pieces AND then on top of that pay the irl tax on it(the irl takes a cut of everything sold by dallara to the teams), it wouldn't cost much different than a Lola or Panoz or some other constructor.

The irl doesn't work and never will work, just as USAC couldn't hack it and failed because it's a indianapolis centric organization that cares little for what goes on outside of the speedway.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by christcc2

Well said.

However don't go over to TrackForum and say this.

Though logical in response, you will get scolded as either as stuck in the past, or a CART lover that can't get over the fact that we're unified.

I might just go to TrackForum for the hell of it. Btw how does Ten-Tenths compare?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

You have to spend money to make money and after teams barf up for all of dallara's junk, aero kits and bits and pieces AND then on top of that pay the irl tax on it(the irl takes a cut of everything sold by dallara to the teams), it wouldn't cost much different than a Lola or Panoz or some other constructor.

The irl doesn't work and never will work, just as USAC couldn't hack it and failed because it's a indianapolis centric organization that cares little for what goes on outside of the speedway.

I understand what you say and it would seem we could be back to a 'USAC/CART' split all too soon.

However, say the teams do split from the IRL/IICS, what will they replace US open wheel racing with, or will the likes of Ganassi and Penske call it a day?

[christcc2]

My opinion of Ten-Tenth's is that it's more logical, and it seems to take the historical perspective into account more often.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by christcc2

My opinion of Ten-Tenth's is that it's more logical, and it seems to take the historical perspective into account more often.

From what I've read on TrackForum, it seems to be more opinion and conjecture than out and out debate and you get loads of debate on the F1 section, though it can be like any other forum and get dominated by a few, but hey

[Empty Box]

Does look much better without the airbox. It's interesting though, people are saying "Oh, it's a concept!", well... it has to hit the track somewhat soon. What is the purpose in making some kit up that will never see the track in what is a spec series... errrr.... I mean spec chassis series where the owners don't even want differing bodywork....

Who are they trying to fool at this stage? The only people who care about Indy Car are the people who are racing fans. No average joe is going to be hunting out this piece of info. That guy doesn't give a darn about what it looks like now, first time he sees it will be the start of next season regardless of what kind of "launch" is has.

which despite the various denials, suggests race fans would like the cars to resemble those before the split.

No, we just don't want ugly looking cars. As a little kid in the 90s, I could easily identify the difference between a CART car and a F1 car. They looked nothing alike outside the fact they both were open wheel, wings n sidepods. Long low and wide, no raised noses. Yet, now we are taking another step towards the MiniF1 feeling that so many here in the States cannot notice.

It's lost the identification. Most people I know could not tell you the difference between an Indy Car and F1 car anymore, even picking out the correct one in a picture. Yea, they aren't motorsports fans, but at the same time, you show them a 90s "Indy Car" (General term) they will point you to the Indy Car more often than not. Yea, an F1 car and the current Dallara look nothing alike, but not to your average person. Both look fragile and have a foreign guy with a hard to pronounce name driving. lol

Change the design, but keep the Indy car look. Give the oval car a pointy nose (OH NOES!), remove the airbox garbage and those flip ups. Then we might have a chance of seeing something that doesn't scream F1 reject.

My 2 cents.

[christcc2]

Over at TrackForum a couple of members who have communicated with Randy and Tony before mocked up a proper roll hoop and sent the pictures over to them.

Here's the response posted today:

"Got en e-mail back from both RB and Tony Cotman (I sent them both the photo that Gomer altered with a comment about the concensus that the airbox needs to go). Tony Cotman said to me that it is just a concept car and that nothing is final yet - the prototype will be much closer to the final car in August. So, he is aware of the airbox controversy.

I do think that we tend to get our panties in a bunch over things like this without having the full story - he is aware of how we feel about the airbox, so let's wait and see what the REAL car looks like..."

Encouraging.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Empty Box

Change the design, but keep the Indy car look. Give the oval car a pointy nose (OH NOES!), remove the airbox garbage and those flip ups. Then we might have a chance of seeing something that doesn't scream F1 reject.

My 2 cents.

You're pretty much confirming what I said,

"which despite the various denials, suggests race fans would like the cars to resemble those before the split."

However you're not denying it.

[steve nielsen]

Thunderbirds are go!

[steve nielsen]

edit

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's amazing how much better they look without the big snorkel on top. I will likely get used to the big sidepod extensions and rear-wheel shields that will prevent wheels from tangling, but they are still a bit of a shock. I think I'm really falling for the roadcourse car. I wish they could just run that with tiny little speedway wings a la CART. I'll say this right now, I think the Reynard 97i and the Lola B2K/00 are two of the greatest looking racecars in history, so that is where my bias lies. But try and tell me those cars in their superspeedway config weren't gorgeous! Haha...

Pardon my ignorance, but how have they addressed that back-breaker gearbox problem on this car?

Chris

[Bob Riebe]

I used to think how much better super-modifieds would look without the nerf-bars--- oh well.

[gttouring]

No air box look way better. If they only whould make a nose structure that isn't the samewith wings attached.

[HJJ]

http://jalopnik.com/5804718/the-futu...er-be/gallery/

IMO, shows how ICONIC failed. I still vote for the DP-01 in oval racing/airbox config (last pic).

[HJJ]

http://jalopnik.com/5804718/the-futu...er-be/gallery/

IMO this just shows how ICONIC got it wrong. I'd still vote for the DP-01 in oval/airbox trim.