Adrian Newey....what happens??

[herowassenna]

I wouldn't disagree that Newey is arguably the greatest F1 designer of the last 20 odd years.

He was responsible for the March in 1990 which led races with Capelli.

After being fired, he was signed to Williams and in conjunction with Patrick Head designed the Williams between 1991 and 1997.
Now the 1992, 93, 95, 96 and 97 cars were head and shoulders above the opposition.

Upon moving to Mclaren in 1997, he designed the Mclaren from 1998 to 2005, but this time only the 98 was dominant. Mika won in 1999, but i'd argue that without Schumacher breaking his leg, Ferrari would have won the drivers title too.
The 2005 Macca was quicker than the Renault, just very fragile.

I'm aware that it's taken a few years to get the infrastructure right at Red Bull, but we're seeing the effect of that now.

At Williams, between 1991 and 1997 when he left, his cars won 4 WDC and 4 WCC

Between 1998 and 2005, (2007 was his first design for Red Bull, having left Mclaren in Nov 05) his cars won 2 WDC and 1 WCC.

Between 1998 and 2005, Ferrari won 5 WDC and 6 WCC

2009 Red Bull won races but their performance was obscured by that seasons "double diffuser" issue. Ferrari wrote off their campaign, Mclaren took half a season to catch up, but Red Bull was massively quick with just a standard diffuser, and once they had the double fitted, were the dominant team of the 2nd half of the season.

What I'm wondering is, what was it about Mclarens team structure that suppressed Neweys genius? Was Rory Byrne vastly under-rated, or did he need a Schumi in the car to express it properly? Is there any designer out there who can raise their game to his level?

There is no Byrne on the horizon, and no matter how good Hamilton or Alonso are, if they haven't got the tools, they will never be able to challenge a Red Bull...

[wnut]

Rory Byrne is a very very good designer!

[Mr V]

Why no (UK) after Neweys name in the thread title?

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

There is no Byrne on the horizon, and no matter how good Hamilton or Alonso are, if they haven't got the tools, they will never be able to challenge a Red Bull...

Disagree there. The Red Bull at the moment isn't THAT dominant in race trim. Their qualifying advantage is making them look faster than they are. They're still the fastest car, but Hamilton is close enough to beat them and if the Ferrari raises it's game and gets closer they can also beat them.

The only problem for Hamilton/Alonso is that Vettel is a very fast driver (probably as fast as both of them, just less consistent), and Webber's no slouch either.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Vettel is a very fast driver (probably as fast as both of them, just less consistent),

Interesting observation when we consider that of the last 9 races, he's won 7, come second once and had an engine blow up whilst easily leading the race and about to win.

I'd say he's the more consistant guy out there at the moment.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Interesting observation when we consider that of the last 9 races, he's won 7, come second once and had an engine blow up whilst easily leading the race and about to win.

I'd say he's the more consistant guy out there at the moment.

Or you could say that the car is consistently faster......

And the only way we would know who is the fastest is if Alonso and Hamilton and Vettel all had the same car. Which could never happen.

Fun, this F1, eh!

[Knowlesy]

Vettel is indeed the most consistent. Vastly superior car, woeful teammate, confidence of a world champion. Easy.

But back to the question. McLaren is more of a design committee I believe, less freedom for Newey which is why I suppose Red Bull appealed.

And Rory Byrne is an incredie designer also, allied to Ross Brawn and his engineering nous. Formidable.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Interesting observation when we consider that of the last 9 races, he's won 7, come second once and had an engine blow up whilst easily leading the race and about to win.

I'd say he's the more consistant guy out there at the moment.

He's been great the last 9 races, but prior to that his inconsistency nearly cost him the 2010 title, and it did cost him the 2009 one. It's not so much inconsistency in pace, but more the odd mistakes. How many quali's last year did he miss out on pole because he pushed too hard. It's good that he's sorted it out now and is making hardly any mistakes.

Hamilton actually made a lot of mistakes last year as well though.

[Marbot]

The last few seasons have been highlighted by drivers/teams trying their damndest not to win the WDC.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

And Rory Byrne is an incredible designer also, allied to Ross Brawn and his engineering nous. Formidable.

Often much under-rated because he deliberately kept a low profile. He retired at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009 and his absence since then has been noticeable.

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by strider

Often much under-rated because he deliberately kept a low profile. He retired at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009 and his absence since then has been noticeable.

Both of them are brilliant. Which of them is the best? Hard to say. They come from very different backgrounds and starting points in motorsport. For my money (and I did work briefly with both) I'd vote for Rory, only because he had so much success before F1. His Formula Ford Royales were exceptional and his Toleman F2 cars equally successful. He was also a mean (county-standard) spin bowler, drank strange Tuborg beer and is/was so low-profile as be virtually invisible on the "who's who" radar. Top bloke.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Interesting observation when we consider that of the last 9 races, he's won 7, come second once and had an engine blow up whilst easily leading the race and about to win.

I'd say he's the more consistant guy out there at the moment.

I think you are right on here, its called apprenticeship in the trades, and I think he is now qualified, and there will now be very few mistakes.

As Marbot said above, last year was characterised by drivers trying not to win the WDC until Vettel stepped up and took it away from them.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Vettel is indeed the most consistent. Vastly superior car, woeful teammate, confidence of a world champion. Easy.

But back to the question. McLaren is more of a design committee I believe, less freedom for Newey which is why I suppose Red Bull appealed.

And Rory Byrne is an incredie designer also, allied to Ross Brawn and his engineering nous. Formidable.

As the saying goes "A camel is a horse designed by committee!"

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

He's been great the last 9 races, but prior to that his inconsistency nearly cost him the 2010 title, and it did cost him the 2009 one.

Engine blow up's almost did the same

Thing is, we're talking about now, not 2009. Bit like saying Michael was fast upto about 2004, doesn't mean he is now

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Hamilton actually made a lot of mistakes last year as well though.

Hamilton (and Webber) made as many in race mistakes as Vettel (2 apiece)

[chunterer]

Newey is one of those design genuises but then so clearly was Byrne, I would also plump for the latter as his cars were consistent whereas Newey's early creations were a bugger to set up on anything other than quick tracks with quick bends!!

The Leyton House went like a bat out of hell on super fasS cicruits but was miles off the pace on twisty ones, the chassis were always crazily stiff IIRC?

James Key and whoever is helping him design the current Sauber could be the next big thing - he was after all involved in the 2009 Force India which was starting to look like a very decent chassis come the end of the season.

Could be a co-incidence but since he was shoved onto gardening leave for nearly a year, that team has gone backwards and Sauber relatively speaking with him at the helm, forwards.