USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

This also could apply to people who claim that the P class is well "balanced".

I don't claim that... what I do claim is that by now it really isn't worse than most other BoP formulae... look how Audi got shafted in BES last year or how badly the BMWs struggle in GTE on the straights. These things happen, and they need to be worked on, but I don't think they are enough reason for wholesale condemnation of a series that had an extremely rocky start but that is actually improving in many areas as of late.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't claim that... what I do claim is that by now it really isn't worse than most other BoP formulae... look how Audi got shafted in BES last year or how badly the BMWs struggle in GTE on the straights. These things happen, and they need to be worked on, but I don't think they are enough reason for wholesale condemnation of a series that had an extremely rocky start but that is actually improving in many areas as of late.

So ... TUSC BoP is no worse than the worst examples you can think of from around the world from the past several years?

New TUSC motto: "As good as the rest of the worst."

Even the TV announcers during the Long Beach broadcast noted that DPs needed to lose about fifty bhp to really balance things out---which is a pretty bold and perceptive statement---one made here by several posters a month and a half ago.

So what is wrong with TUSC management that they still haven't figured it out?

And this is not the issue of an individual car getting a bad break (like Audi in GTD) but a whole class of cars--P2s--getting shafted, and Most Important--when the Perception of equality between DP and P2 is Essential to the health of the series.

TUSC management still seems not to have realized that at least 75% of their fan base came over from ALMS, and while they can accept P2s getting beat in a fair fight, they want to see a Fair Fight.

So long as it seems that the owners of the Rolex series is favoring the Rolex cars and teams, three-quarters of the fan base is being insulted and abused--Not the best business strategy.

For those who say old ALMS fans wouldn't mind if P2s won everything--I wouldn't mind, so long as it was a Fair Fight. Maybe some ALMS or Rolex gomers are so immature that they just want their guys to win no matter what, but I and a lot like me are Race fans, and we want to see good racing---not unfair, uneven, or possibly even fixed "compe-tainment."

Further, this does not just involve P2s. I was at the 2013 Rolex where Scott Pruett et al. were handed the win via a pre-race BoP break which made the Riley-BMWs 5 mph faster than every other DP. I didn't like it.

I equally dislike that the new EcoBoost engine seems to have gotten a similar break.

I really respect Scott Pruett--he has been a hot shoe since 1986--he is very much the real deal, and for him to still be so quick at age 54 is wonderful to see. I won't mind if he wins every race this year--so long as every race is a Fair race, where he wins because he and his team outperformed other teams with equal equipment.

Otherwise, I might as well watch old racing movies where at least everyone can admit that the outcomes are scripted.

I have not yet given up on TUSC--the series really impressed me by letting everyone race at Long Beach. That was how a race should be officiated---only using FCYs when there is no safe alternative. Bravo TUSC on that one.

The broadcast quality was even worse than the previous two races, something I would never have imagined possible, but right now I don't know if that is down to TUSC or Fox so I won't lay blame on either.

But BoP in the Prototype class has Got to be fixed for Laguna Seca and for every race thereafter.

Even in the P1/P2 days when Audi, Porsche, and Acura could all fight on fairly equal footing, there wasn't this "This kind of car can win at this track, this other kind of car can only win at this other track."

"Equal" means any car can win anywhere. Each might have to make full use of its advantages at each track, but seriously, why watch a race if you know in advance that half the top class is denied a chance at victory by the rulesmakers?

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

P2 pole time 2013: 1:16.014
P pole time 2014: 1:15.325 (best P2: 1:15.668 )

Yup, NASCAR really slowed them down...

I wouldn't blame NASCAR for the slowing down of P2. The 'world' did that.

With that said the spectacle sucks compared to when P cars were doing 1:12s around LB.

[HJJ]

For races 2:45 and under, I'd like to see Conti bring an "option" (read: softer) tire that all "P" teams have to run at some point of the race.

Could mix things up a bit.

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by HJJ

For races 2:45 and under, I'd like to see Conti bring an "option" (read: softer) tire that all "P" teams have to run at some point of the race.

Could mix things up a bit.

I really don't want it to be like Indycar or Formula One though, where teams HAVE to use the option tire. I think Conti should have multiple tire compounds available, but shouldn't force teams to use them.

[Matt]

Yeah, I wouldn't be a fan of option and prime compounds either.

[PointDSM]

Or why don't we just cut the BS and have Michelin, Falken, Continental, and Goodyear (it wouldn't be a bad idea) make tires for all cars in the series! Totally an open tire setup, the companies need to pay to enter the series (enough to counter the loss revenue of from Continental), and we're good.

I wish I knew how close the numbers where (financially).

[Dyson Mazda]

I really wish TUSC would go to this caution procedure

http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/safety...race_1826.html

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by PointDSM

Or why don't we just cut the BS and have Michelin, Falken, Continental, and Goodyear (it wouldn't be a bad idea) make tires for all cars in the series! Totally an open tire setup, the companies need to pay to enter the series (enough to counter the loss revenue of from Continental), and we're good.

I wish I knew how close the numbers where (financially).

STAAAAAHHHP........WAY, way too smart of an idea.

[Mystery]

I miss ALMS. I don't want to watch the DPs at all with their bodywork made of a substance roughly as strong as butterfly wings. They just don't feel like international standard racing cars to me. To see what I perceive as an unfair imbalance towards them simply makes me wonder if my initial feelings about the merger were right after all. Just an American series doing American things for American people and the rest of you can just do whatever you like really.

If only they gave the impression that a fair fight was being had then I'd feel totally different. Even if they put the P2s into a class of their own now (since they more or less are anyway) that would at least come across to me as being more honest.

Then I'm conflicted when I see new manufacturers coming to DP. They are at least getting an easy way in to the series. But of course if they'd never challenge for wins in a P2 then they're never likely to build one and therefore the series is just further cast adrift away from the International Sportscar world.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Mystery

I miss ALMS. I don't want to watch the DPs at all with their bodywork made of a substance roughly as strong as butterfly wings. They just don't feel like international standard racing cars to me. To see what I perceive as an unfair imbalance towards them simply makes me wonder if my initial feelings about the merger were right after all. Just an American series doing American things for American people and the rest of you can just do whatever you like really.

If only they gave the impression that a fair fight was being had then I'd feel totally different. Even if they put the P2s into a class of their own now (since they more or less are anyway) that would at least come across to me as being more honest.

Then I'm conflicted when I see new manufacturers coming to DP. They are at least getting an easy way in to the series. But of course if they'd never challenge for wins in a P2 then they're never likely to build one and therefore the series is just further cast adrift away from the International Sportscar world.

The ford ecoboost was planned for DP to replace the NA V8 before the merger was announced. They also were trying to drum up interest in it as a P2 engine but nobody serious bit. The only good venue for a P2 engine now would be in Europe but the engine field is a lot tougher there than in DP and it isn't clear that Ford is so interested in that market.

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by wdave0

The ford ecoboost was planned for DP to replace the NA V8 before the merger was announced. They also were trying to drum up interest in it as a P2 engine but nobody serious bit. The only good venue for a P2 engine now would be in Europe but the engine field is a lot tougher there than in DP and it isn't clear that Ford is so interested in that market.

I meant Honda actually. But then again they do of course build a P2 anyway (more or less) so your idea is better for my complaint

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Mystery

Then I'm conflicted when I see new manufacturers coming to DP. They are at least getting an easy way in to the series.

Who? Ford??

It's a marketing exercise with benefits from NASCAR.

[chernaudi]

It's cheaper than Ford going out and signing deals with LMP2 teams (who haven't really bit for any of the Ford engines that could be used in LMP2, be it the EcoBoost or the 5.0 Cammer V8), they already had a deal with MSR, and getting Ganassi was a big boost for them (though Ganassi runs Chevrolets in NASCAR and they are a DP engine supplier as well).

Basically, it's exactly that: a marketing campaign on the cheap, sort of like what Audi proposed by taking their 5.0 V10 and putting in the back of a DP. And Ford doesn't have to support a team that would run LM or the WEC, both of which are more expensive than their TUSCC program.

It's also sort of a deal possibly where when things go well, both in the paring will benefit, while if things don't, unless it's painfully clear it's the manufacturer's fault, they can blame the team.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Mystery

I meant Honda actually. But then again they do of course build a P2 anyway (more or less) so your idea is better for my complaint

Honda seems to have an engine centric US racing presence - both Indy and DP V6T, I suspect a lot of shared tech even though the indy fuel is methanol. Next up is F1, also V6T. I'd say DP is the cheapest way to get an engine on the podium of a "major" pro series, although it appears winning requires the nod of approval.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by wdave0

Honda seems to have an engine centric US racing presence - both Indy and DP V6T, I suspect a lot of shared tech even though the indy fuel is methanol. Next up is F1, also V6T. I'd say DP is the cheapest way to get an engine on the podium of a "major" pro series, although it appears winning requires the nod of approval.

You know, Honda can make their presence in both TUSC and WEC by putting their shared tech V6 turbo engine to that Wirth Research-made LMP2 coupe.

Still, why bother create a DP when the regs will be revised in 2016 or 2017 anyway!

[Matt]

Because I like crudely photoshopping things...a 962 Canopy on a TUSC-spec DP.

[PointDSM]

Somebody really needs to throw the new aero bits on a DP, toss in the ol' Aston Martin V12...put some Michelins on it, and really silence some people!

[MagVanisher]

Like I said, why bother making DPs when the LMP2/DP regulations were united and revised, or eliminate DP altogether in 2016 or 2017 unless major manufacturers are involved to put their styling and bodywork to the prototypes instead of a half-assed job like the Ford DP.

Right now, the only thing that TUSC needs to do is to balance the DPs and the LMP2, preventing the former becoming the dominant formula in future seasons. Heck, the number one team (like Ganassi) in the series won't even race in Le Mans since the DPs are dangerous.

[belt driven]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Who? Ford??

It's a marketing exercise with benefits from NASCAR.

Grand Am wasn’t especially favorable to Ford in the past. When the Coyote engine package appeared to be getting 15% better fuel economy, they created the 45 minute fuel stop rule to prevent them from possibly winning a caution filled race (normal) on one less fuel stop.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

...It's also sort of a deal possibly where when things go well, both in the paring will benefit, while if things don't, unless it's painfully clear it's the manufacturer's fault, they can blame the team.

Looking at the record, it will be pretty hard to pin blame on Ganassi if things go poorly.

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

...Still, why bother create a DP when the regs will be revised in 2016 or 2017 anyway!

Why bother to create a DP when it would be cheaper to adapt an existing one. Sahlens had 2 Riley Mk XXVIs and Starworks had a second car (unless Gainsco got dibs on one of these if their car is a total?). There was even a Doran chassis rebodied as a Riley.

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

...Heck, the number one team (like Ganassi) in the series won't even race in Le Mans since the DPs are dangerous.

Even if a DP was allowed/able to run a competetive package at LeMans; what advertising benefit does a Mexican telecommunications company (or a US only department store) get from sponsoring a LeMans entry? It's imortant to us sports car fans, but there aren't enough of us to be very important to sponsors.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Matt

Because I like crudely photoshopping things...a 962 Canopy on a TUSC-spec DP.

Now with new and improved lower rear wing, more crude photoshopping.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by Matt

Now with new and improved lower rear wing, more crude photoshopping.

Well, if I can grade prototypes' appealing level from 1 to 10. First gen DP is 0, and Riley Ford is 3, but the corvette DP here at least earns a 8.

[jasonjessica09]

The Corvette is the only good looking DP ever. The Ford Ecoboost is hideous like the other versions of the generic Rileys before that.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Well, if I can grade prototypes' appealing level from 1 to 10. First gen DP is 0, and Riley Ford is 3, but the corvette DP here at least earns a 8.

Sure that the Corvette DP is a step-up from those generic Riley prototypes. However, it doesn't even resemble closely to the real Corvette.

Maybe IMSA should convince the FIA and ACO to allow front-engine prototypes come 2016 despite being at a disadvantage.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Sure that the Corvette DP is a step-up from those generic Riley prototypes. However, it doesn't even resemble closely to the real Corvette.

Maybe IMSA should convince the FIA and ACO to allow front-engine prototypes come 2016 despite being at a disadvantage.

Neither did the Corvette GTP.