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Old 16 Apr 2014, 02:46 (Ref:3393114)   #6076
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Lagunaseca_4life should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLagunaseca_4life should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by CyberMotor View Post
I think the shock of the WEC is that Audi, one of the world's leaders in advanced propulsion hybrid systems, decided to fall back on the tried and true diesel rather than competing in the advanced levels of hybrid systems.

I think the whole idea of the ACO and FIA is to showcase advanced systems. Audi is undercutting this whole principle by declining to go for it.
What's part of audis Diesel engine is not advanced? Go look under the hood of any modern Diesel engine car,pick up,even semi trucks and see how advanced Diesel engines have become.at least sticking and relying on the diesel will advance it further and possibly trickle down into road cars,where as the flybrid will never really be packaged into daily driven road cars.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 03:28 (Ref:3393120)   #6077
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But we were/are afraid of turbines....
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 06:09 (Ref:3393135)   #6078
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Originally Posted by CyberMotor View Post
I think the shock of the WEC is that Audi, one of the world's leaders in advanced propulsion hybrid systems, decided to fall back on the tried and true diesel rather than competing in the advanced levels of hybrid systems.

I think the whole idea of the ACO and FIA is to showcase advanced systems. Audi is undercutting this whole principle by declining to go for it.
Well, to be fair, the ACO-FIA did "undercut" this principle themselves by defining various ERS options in the rules in the first place
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 18:20 (Ref:3393432)   #6079
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So, the disadvantage is teorically enough to force Audi only fight for 5ยบ place?
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 19:07 (Ref:3393458)   #6080
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ummm nah. they will complain and kick everyones arse at the 24. Audi hates it when the opposition even gets close. nothing to see here
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 19:11 (Ref:3393463)   #6081
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Agreed Audi will throw everything they can at the 24 hour and they will be hard to beat whatever they are saying now
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 04:01 (Ref:3393668)   #6082
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ummm nah. they will complain and kick everyones arse at the 24. Audi hates it when the opposition even gets close. nothing to see here
Peugeot pulled it off. Are you afraid of someone being very good???

Edit: Excuse me...Do you resent someone being very good???

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Old 17 Apr 2014, 05:31 (Ref:3393686)   #6083
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Spyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Hmm... I detect the burnt smell of martyrdom. Audi will still be the team to beat.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 05:47 (Ref:3393688)   #6084
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Audi definitely still has the efficiency advantage, the rules are equalising different fuel technology but they definitely leave a little advantage, IMHO completely equal FTF would be around 1.1 not 1.07.
As for ERS initiative after testing it obviously showed that the first numbers for recuperation efficiency were too optimistic and that in actual race driving you can not get that much energy back. The Porsche decision to go from 8MJ to 6MJ class proves that.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 07:36 (Ref:3393725)   #6085
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I am a lot more pessimistic for Audi. I suspect that the ERS incentive is still in place, potentially giving Toyota and Porsche a 2 sec performance advantage for free.

On top of that, Audi will have a disadvantage in stint length. In the shorter WEC races, this could mean that Audi has to do a late splash and dash to finish the race.

I hope that I am wrong, but my prediction is still that Toyota will dominate Silverstone and Spa, clearly showing that the rules favor them. And because the EoT only allows for rule changes after Le Mans, Toyota will win Le Mans with little effort.

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Old 17 Apr 2014, 08:06 (Ref:3393732)   #6086
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I am a lot more pessimistic for Audi. I suspect that the ERS incentive is still in place, potentially giving Toyota and Porsche a 2 sec performance advantage for free.

On top of that, Audi will have a disadvantage in stint length. In the shorter WEC races, this could mean that Audi has to do a late splash and dash to finish the race.

I hope that I am wrong, but my prediction is still that Toyota will dominate Silverstone and Spa, clearly showing that the rules favor them. And because the EoT only allows for rule changes after Le Mans, Toyota will win Le Mans with little effort.
I am not that pessimistic about Audi's chances. Looking at the amount of energy available per lap, the petrol 6 MJ/lap ERS option and the diesel 2 MJ/lap ERS option appear to be on equal footing. As long as Audi can meet their fuel efficiency target, it should be okay for them in terms of lap performance. I strongly doubt that Audi will be up to two seconds per lap slower at LM than the competition.

The big question mark is stint length. It indeed seems that Audi's stints at LM will possibly be one lap shorter than the competition. This stint-length deficit obviously translates into a performance deficit, but this deficit was already pretty obvious in the initial drafts of the rules. I am therefore still a bit surprised to hear Audi "complain" about this stint-length deficit.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 08:23 (Ref:3393739)   #6087
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deltawing should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddeltawing should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Confucius says: Never ever underestimate the mighty diesel!

(The whole 2 MJ thing was very carefully planned and it is going to be extremely well executed. They may even chose to lose the first two races and make everyone believe even more in them being so badly hurt by the rules, then come back at LeMans and surprise everyone with some "new found speed" and by the time everyone realizes what is going on, the one race that matters will be in their pocket. Watch them execute, this is going to be a master piece on so many levels! )
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 14:15 (Ref:3393907)   #6088
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We also know that Audi may have the edge over their opposition in terms of areo. They've done most of their testing (that we know of) in some kind of sprint race configuration. Audi by far have the most miles of problem-free testing, and the most miles of testing by far of a sprint race configuration.

Their sector times at the PR test, especially if they were running to the newest energy allocation basis, were impressive in spite of all that drag. And they still have the power and torque of the diesel engine, and in race conditions, that matters quite a lot, as the DP vs LMP2 deal in TUSCC has shown. Also, it's easier to recover the 2MJ equivalent around Silverstone than 6MJ equivalent--traffic and track conditions can really screw that up for Porsche and Toyota. And there will be times that the hybrid systems on all cars will be of limited use.

Also, the diesel engine is more efficient than a gasoline engine running on E20, and the B10 diesel oil has more energy per unit than E20.

In spite of my seemingly gloom and doom predictions, based on the PR test (and yes, it was only a test), I don't think that Audi are down and out for here or LM just yet. If they can be faster than Toyota and Porsche and hit their energy targets, they'll be in fairly good shape come Sunday.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 14:19 (Ref:3393911)   #6089
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I always thougt it was the Toyota car that had better aerodynamics
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 14:23 (Ref:3393916)   #6090
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Yeah that was my understating too nobster
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 15:33 (Ref:3393949)   #6091
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I'm with gwyllion on the fate of Audi, firmer than ever after the calculation of stint distances and the EoT figures. They surely cannot win anything before Le Mans, podium finishes as a reward for their teamwork and experience I'd say.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 15:56 (Ref:3393959)   #6092
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Guys never ever count Audi out, in the end they are always somewhere up there where the prices are given.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 16:11 (Ref:3393966)   #6093
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Audi have been doing this type of racing for many years now they have a great team with bags of experience so never underestimate them
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 17:00 (Ref:3393993)   #6094
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Also, the diesel engine is more efficient than a gasoline engine running on E20, and the B10 diesel oil has more energy per unit than E20.
What unit? All the units are calculated in MJ. And E20 can potentially bring more efficiency (higher CR) than E10 or premium gasoline, but it has less energy per volume.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 17:22 (Ref:3394001)   #6095
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Guys never ever count Audi out, in the end they are always somewhere up there where the prices are given.
Even if Audi doesnt bring the speed, they've always had reliability
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 17:50 (Ref:3394016)   #6096
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What unit? All the units are calculated in MJ. And E20 can potentially bring more efficiency (higher CR) than E10 or premium gasoline, but it has less energy per volume.
Per gallon, liter, whatever. The problem with E20 is that it's 20% ethanol, and ethanol isn't very energy rich (one liter of ethanol has only about 2/3 the energy of pure gasoline). Bio-diesel, though, has the same energy content as normal diesel.

It also has to be remembered that Audi have run B10 since 2008, while E20 is new to both Porsche and Toyota for this season.
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Old 17 Apr 2014, 22:34 (Ref:3394136)   #6097
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Per gallon, liter, whatever. The problem with E20 is that it's 20% ethanol, and ethanol isn't very energy rich (one liter of ethanol has only about 2/3 the energy of pure gasoline). Bio-diesel, though, has the same energy content as normal diesel.
You are missing GasperG's point.

Ethanol has a higher octane number than petrol. Therefor the engine can run with a higher compression ratio, leading to a power increase.

The fact that the fuel consumption is higher for ethanol, can easily be compensated in the rules with a higher fuel flow and bigger fuel tank.
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Old 18 Apr 2014, 14:42 (Ref:3394459)   #6098
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Audi has to be having some amazing corning speeds to be very close to Porsche in lap time at Silverstone but down almost 35km/h down the straights.
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Old 18 Apr 2014, 14:50 (Ref:3394462)   #6099
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Audi has to be having some amazing corning speeds to be very close to Porsche in lap time at Silverstone but down almost 35km/h down the straights.
Indeed. This seems to be one of the main characteristics of the new car.
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Old 18 Apr 2014, 14:57 (Ref:3394467)   #6100
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sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
the last minute rule change seems quite unfair to audi, on the other hand, looking at their track performance so far, i think maybe they can predict their performance and efficiency better than us and since they didn't decide to quit or make a huge thing out of it, i suppose they feel they have what it takes to fight for victory. i mean, if the rules would have been so catastrophic on their performance, they wouldn't really accept fighting for anything less than victory in wec races and, even moreso, in le mans, would they?
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