[Rules] Blown diffusers to be restricted from Spain (ESP)

[gregc]

Reported on Autosport, the FIA are clamping down on throttle openings when the driver is off the throttle, preventing the blown diffuser from working effectively under braking, with immediate effect.

This should make Barcelona interesting...

[Marbot]

Some teams whole aero philosophies are based on the blown diffuser.

[neiltb]

and we'll likely find out who this weekend.

F1 designers in engine air pump gaffe!!

[GolddustMini]

i heard that ferrari were going to negate this loss of exhaust gas by piping their diffuser into luca de montizemelo's (sp?) mouth to harness the sheer amount of hot air that comes out!

[browney]

The way they are using diffusers may be a loop-hole in the rules, but it still seems to be within the rules. Changing them mid season, when teams have spent millions developing cars to the would seem to be wrong.

The double decked diffuser seemed far more of a fine rule interpretation (I don't see most of the teams saying they thought such a device was illegal from reading the rules compared to the DDD) and they let that through.

This seems more in line with the F-duct, using a clever (clever, but not exactly new, I remember learning of the blow diffuser concept when I was back in uni and was surprised when it came up in F1 as an issue as I assumed that it was already in use to some extent) method that the FIA didn't really even think about (compared to the DDD which I'm sure was the type of concept that the FIA was trying to eliminate).

[Marbot]

Teams get a let off for Spain.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91481

It seems that we've got the point of the engine actually becoming a moveable aero device!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Teams get a let off for Spain.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91481

It seems that we've got the point of the engine actually becoming a moveable aero device!

Well, since the engine is rigidly mounted to the chassis, as has been said before, that makes the entire car a moveable aerodynamic device.

If they are banning this, presumably the Renault front exiting exhaust will be next as it using exhaust gas for aero effect, effectively making the engine a downforce source as well, albeit only on throttle, but it still links throttle position with downforce, which is specifically what is being banned.

This rule change does seem a bit daft.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by browney

The way they are using diffusers may be a loop-hole in the rules, but it still seems to be within the rules. Changing them mid season, when teams have spent millions developing cars to the would seem to be wrong.

The double decked diffuser seemed far more of a fine rule interpretation (I don't see most of the teams saying they thought such a device was illegal from reading the rules compared to the DDD) and they let that through.

This seems more in line with the F-duct, using a clever (clever, but not exactly new, I remember learning of the blow diffuser concept when I was back in uni and was surprised when it came up in F1 as an issue as I assumed that it was already in use to some extent) method that the FIA didn't really even think about (compared to the DDD which I'm sure was the type of concept that the FIA was trying to eliminate).

I agree with you here the diffusers are a clever use of the laws and should be allowed until the end of the season. It is unfair to ban them at this stage. This just leads to the perception that the FIA is biased and favouring some of the teams! Wrong, just plain wrong!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Well, since the engine is rigidly mounted to the chassis, as has been said before, that makes the entire car a moveable aerodynamic device.

The pistons aren't rigidly mounted to the engine. And I presume that it's the movement of the pistons that provides the downforce.

Originally Posted by wnut

I agree with you here the diffusers are a clever use of the laws and should be allowed until the end of the season. It is unfair to ban them at this stage. This just leads to the perception that the FIA is biased and favouring some of the teams! Wrong, just plain wrong!

How could the FIA possibly know which teams it will affect the most? I suppose they must be favouring HRT and Virgin.

I also don't suppose that it's the sort of noise that most want to hear, as a spectator, at a street circuit like Monaco, either.

[browney]

I also wonder about the benefits of banning it as well?

It introduces strategy (because using it more would burn more fuel, which is limited by the tank size) but I can't work out if it would be an advantage or not for overtaking if the whole field has it. Maybe it would help a when you are a following car as your diffuser is being fed by predictably behaving gas out of the engine, however it could hinder by creating a more energised upwash out of the diffuser for the car following?

Maybe someone who is better with fluids could help (I'm much more a structural guy these days, unfortunately for my F1 following/understanding).

[Marbot]

The problem seems to be connected with the use of additional fuel when the driver would normally not have his foot on the loud pedal (braking). So at all other times the blown diffuser would be acting as a normal diffuser. Therefore it would have no effect on the overtaking capabilities of the cars. It is used simply as a means to create more downforce when the driver doesn't have his foot on the loud pedal (hence the strange noises that you can hear when they enter a corner).

[Alex Hodgkinson]

The ability to keep exhaust gasses flowing even when off throttle must be derived from the anti-lag system developed for turbocharged cars.

See here

[strider]

I'm not surprised the FIA has changed its mind so far as implementing the change this weekend goes. It's a pretty extreme step and not one you could do overnight.

In fact, knowing how the FIA thinks, making it immediate was probably never on the cards, but saying it was would be enough to give the the teams a kick up the butt and focus their attention.

[bella]

i'm not really sure if i understand why the fia keep moving to ban new innovative uses of things like exhaust gases in this way. what genuine innovations that have been pioneered either by one team or another have actually been allowed to hang around for longer than a single season at most? isn't it one of the raisons d'etre of f1, to develop new ways of making cars work? if you take out all that sort of thing then all you're left with is a spec formula.

i don't buy the cost saving principle either. by the time the fia bans it many if not all teams have already chucked money and people at it to try and develop their own alternative for something that's immediately obsolete.

[gwyllion]

The (potential) ban of blown diffuser was already predicted in http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...-floors-in-f1/

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The (potential) ban of blown diffuser was already predicted in http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...-floors-in-f1/

Indeed. It probably doesn't sit too well with Jean Todts 'green' vision of F1.

Using extra fuel to create something that has no value in the 'real world', must have been enough to make him spit out his cafe latte all over his Toyota Prius.

[P38 in workshop]

Given that the PR mouthpieces of the teams invariably announce that their team is hoping to add development parts to the (hitherto disappointing) cars at the next race in the hope of becoming more competitive;and consequently have expended a fair amount of their resources doing so-it must be really galling to have the FIA moving the goalposts.If the cars conformed to the prevailing rules at the start of the season and the change is not being imposed for safety reasons,the teams have every right to feel aggrieved.By all means introduce the ban for 2012 and the teams will not waste their efforts exploring radical design avenues for the cars that are currently being developed.Capricious and arbitrary rule changes in mid-season will only reinforce the teams resolve to see substantial changes in the governance of the sport as part of any new Concorde agreement.

[shatners bassoon]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Indeed. It probably doesn't sit too well with Jean Todts 'green' vision of F1.

Using extra fuel to create something that has no value in the 'real world', must have been enough to make him spit out his cafe latte all over his Toyota Prius.

TBH as little effect as it has in the real world, wasting fuel to produce consistent downforce when it isn't really necessary is going to sound daft to 90% of the public. It's not as if the blown diffuser is a new idea anyway

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

i'm not really sure if i understand why the fia keep moving to ban new innovative uses of things like exhaust gases in this way. what genuine innovations that have been pioneered either by one team or another have actually been allowed to hang around for longer than a single season at most? isn't it one of the raisons d'etre of f1, to develop new ways of making cars work? if you take out all that sort of thing then all you're left with is a spec formula.

i don't buy the cost saving principle either. by the time the fia bans it many if not all teams have already chucked money and people at it to try and develop their own alternative for something that's immediately obsolete.

You are absolutely right "all you're left with is a spec formula."

Not only this but clear bias when they allow things like double diffusers and then not a clear innovation like the front exit exhaust and blown diffuser.

We hear heart rending stories about why they cannot cull the elephant or go to bigger wheel rims or wider tyres, and then they feel free to trash someones innovation with no notice. The Renault must have significant compromises in its set up to allow the front exit exhausts and blown diffuser, how can they compensate for the loss of this device when they are unable to change the chassis during the course of the year.

Surely these devices were cleared with Charlie Whiting the FIA delegate before the season started.

P.S. Virgin and HRT are not racing anyone, so virtually any legislative change has no bearing on them. A simple notice that x will not be allowed next season should suffice.

[Knowlesy]

Innovation and creative thinking must be banned.

Spec series.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Innovation and creative thinking must be banned.

Spec series.

Well, it's not like they found more downforce by using less fuel. That would have been impressive.

[JeremySmith]

Thank God the FIA saw the light...

[browney]

Has any reasoning been given for them wanting to ban this? I really don't see the harm in it at all? It is also a well established and understood concept. I can't see what they are thinking all of a sudden to want to ban it? Other than, perhaps they think that Red Bull have sorted it out better than other teams and it will hlep bring Sebastian back to the pack (but how would they know which team has it working best?).

Regardless, changing the rules on something like this is unfair and completely different to the way the DDD was handled (although I think this had a lot to do with the fact that Toyota had the DDD and the FIA didn't want to offend them).

As far as my comment before about effects on overtaking, I just wondered if this concept can help by allowing a car to have more downforce in a corner that is not affected by the car infront as this is predicatble, energetic air provided by the engine rather than the 'dirty air' that gets pushed under the car from the car infront. Aren't the FIA keen on the cars having downforce that isn't affected by wake?

So anybody got any ideas on the FIAs reasoning?

[Marbot]

I think that the FIA just want to keep corner speeds down in general.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I think that the FIA just want to keep corner speeds down in general.

Have a peak and sustained lateral G limit and let the teams use whatever tech they want?