[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Just decided to show off the high-res driver images from ms.toyota.co.jp.

[Bandicoot17]

Interesting little bit of info in the Autosport Le Man guide.

Toyota have completed four endurance tests, Audi have done two.

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Interesting little bit of info in the Autosport Le Man guide.

Toyota have completed four endurance tests, Audi have done two.

Do we know how much testing Porsche have done? IIRC they have been developing the car almost as long as Toyota has.

[Articus]

I don't think we'll see Toyota go the battery route. The company is no fan of batteries or the Tesla Model S. Lithium Air batteries are way off in the future by the way. The problem is the battery electrode surface needs oxygen, not all the other junk that can be found in "air", which leads to side reactions on the electrode surface that block the oxygen from seeing the surface. This means the eventually the entire electrode surface will "die". So until they find a way to completely scrub the air of hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide. Even if they do it's not practical for racing.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Toyota showed first prototype of solid state battery in 2010, those things can go really slow or even never see a production. And from the article 2 kW/liter rated power would take a 176 l of volume only for the cells and it would have a capacity of 70 kWh, a total no-go.

They could improve supercap, since there are many different types with different energy and power rating, but I think we will never see the batteries that can take >350 kW and have only ~1 kWh of storage. Maybe some hybrid Li-Ion capacitors.

Porsche example is on the edge of battery use, but they only charge and discharge it with 180 kW because only ERS-K needs storage. ERS-H energy is probably directly routed to the electric motor and even if it's not, both ERS-H and ERS-K can not generate at the same time. Toyota would need twice the power rating of Porsche storage or twice the size.

The ERS-H is also used to charge the battery. This is why Porsche were advantaged in Spa and Silverstone. Toyota couldn't recover the max allocation because their weren't enough brake zones.

If I recall, the Porsche ERS-H recovers up to 90kW from the exhaust.

[GasperG]

All true, but:
1. ERS-H generates at full throthle, ERS-K generates at braking, so battery must cope either with 90 kW charge (ERS-H), 180 kW charge (ERS-K) or 180 kW discharge (power to EM), it never has to take 270 kW charge. Toyota's storage must cope with 350 kW charge/discharge power all the time.
2. If ERS-H generates at acceleration IMHO it's best to use the energy directly on el. motor, this energy also counts for MJ class it doesn't have to come from the battery. Using it directly you don't have battery charge/discharge losses, those are probably more than 10%, when battery is under "stress".

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Articus

I don't think we'll see Toyota go the battery route. The company is no fan of batteries or the Tesla Model S. Lithium Air batteries are way off in the future by the way. The problem is the battery electrode surface needs oxygen, not all the other junk that can be found in "air", which leads to side reactions on the electrode surface that block the oxygen from seeing the surface. This means the eventually the entire electrode surface will "die". So until they find a way to completely scrub the air of hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide. Even if they do it's not practical for racing.

Theyre not a fan of batteries for 0-emission vehicles. But battery tech is still a huge deal. They are in a partnership with bmw to produce lithium metal air batteries. The bmw i3 is suppose to have one of these types of batteries by 2017.

[alless]

Does anybody here have a picture of TS040? THx

[gwyllion]

http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/fa...orner/?album=6

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by alless

Does anybody here have a picture of TS040? THx

Google is your friend mate.

[alless]

@gwyllion thx but couldnt find anything special there.

@dbagtbag yes i know, ive searched it but couldnt find anything, even flickr and i thought somebody here had better luck on that.

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by alless

@gwyllion thx but couldnt find anything special there.

@dbagtbag yes i know, ive searched it but couldnt find anything, even flickr and i thought somebody here had better luck on that.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ts04...w=1920&bih=979

Heres about two hundred different pictures for you

[alless]

Originally Posted by dbagtbag

https://www.google.com/search?q=ts04...w=1920&bih=979

Heres about two hundred different pictures for you

I have them, im looking for cockpit pictures

[tomazy]

Originally Posted by alless

Does anybody here have a picture of TS040 cockpit? THx

Fixed. You forgot to mention this before

[alless]

Originally Posted by tomazy

Fixed. You forgot to mention this before

Ups, thats embarrassing now Exactly, cockpit pics needed if anybody picked up something somewhere. Ive found one blured one from teaser pics and another one from photoshoting car but there seem to be few things missing.

[TF110]

Ill find more later.

[madfast]

reading this article http://imgur.com/i1kQqnt,aVZ731z#0 again, i wonder if it's possible the TS040 is running the "atkinson" cycle.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by madfast

reading this article http://imgur.com/i1kQqnt,aVZ731z#0 again, i wonder if it's possible the TS040 is running the "atkinson" cycle.

they would need much larger dispalcement engine in order to have adequate power to run with the atkinson cycle.With the same redline of ~8500 they would need atleast 5 liters,maybe more.Also since VVT is not allowed that would be very hard to do

[GasperG]

1.8 Prius gets 74 kW @ 5.200 rpm with linear interpolation 3.7 "Prius" engine would get only 263 kW @ 9.000 rpm, but then again Prius engine runs at extreme 8:1 effective compression and 13:1 expansion ratio.

I still think as I said earlier it could be that 17:1 is not the effective compression ratio but it's still must be high (16:1) to get that power. I don't know at what point you can call an engine "atkinson" cycle engine.

Maybe next year they come up with 5.0 L engine but then they will face engine overweight and they will have to go with lighter hybrid system.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by GasperG

1.8 Prius gets 74 kW @ 5.200 rpm with linear interpolation 3.7 "Prius" engine would get only 263 kW @ 9.000 rpm, but then again Prius engine runs at extreme 8:1 effective compression and 13:1 expansion ratio.

I still think as I said earlier it could be that 17:1 is not the effective compression ratio but it's still must be high (16:1) to get that power. I don't know at what point you can call an engine "atkinson" cycle engine.

Maybe next year they come up with 5.0 L engine but then they will face engine overweight and they will have to go with lighter hybrid system.

A 5.0 L engine shouldn't be that much heavier if all else is equal.It is more about packaging IMHO.And if they go that down that route of a big displacement it would be more beneficial just to drop the redline to 7k and stick with "Otto" cycle, again IMHO

[Bandicoot17]

MulsanneMike suggesting that an LMP1 has a mechanical rear wing reduces angle with speed. Could this be the Toyota, I know a few of you were discussing that it may have a suspicious rear wing earlier in the thread.

What is the legality of this too?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

MulsanneMike suggesting that an LMP1 has a mechanical rear wing reduces angle with speed. Could this be the Toyota, I know a few of you were discussing that it may have a suspicious rear wing earlier in the thread.

What is the legality of this too?

Mechanical but passive. Let's put it that way. I've been looking at Art 3.6.2 and think I understand how it would pass, thus making the car 100% legal. However, this is so out of the spirit of the regulations I really don't care about "clever."

[Articus]

Interesting. I can think of a load of reasons why each manufacturer could have this.

Porsche: Also had a flexing rear deck during test day- was it a decoy? They certainly know how to make things flex then

Toyota: Acknowledged some sort of secret weapon adn also know how to make things flex.

Audi: In desperate need of extra straightline speed.

[carbon_titanium]

audi LH rear wing is already completely flat if I remember well

[Articus]

Can we start by collecting some good rear wing shots?

I realized that the Le Mans spec Audi runs with a single element rear wing, i.e the mainplane

Both the Le Mans Toyota and the Porsche are running dual element rear wings (mp and flap).

Maybe some kind of interaction between flap and mainplane allows the flex at speed?