If the names were reversed?

[Wrex]

Induge me if you will, in a fantasy. This fantasy is not only a potentially reality, but is history here at Ten-Tenths. This fantasy of mine involves the greatest F1 forum on the net. A beautiful place that involves inside info, clever insightful discussion, humour, and a shared passion among friends.

This was our forum a few years back when I joined. Sure we disagreed, but there was no angst involved. It was the reason I passed on 5 others and stayed here. I suspect it was the same for others.

Lately however, it seems we are becoming just like the others, and I fear if something is not said, it will continue that way. We now have full blown driver bashing threads. I have even participated in them, most of us have.

I often wonder when a driver/team is being praised or bashed, would that poster say the same thing if the names were reversed?

Would you still have said the same things about Monty and Ralfs performances had the names been reversed?

Would you still have had the same praise/critism of Webber and Wilson?

Would you have seen the MS/JPM incident differently with the names reversed?

Are you quick to praise or make excuses for 'your' guy? Are you quick to slag or critise the other guy? We have some model members here (one of which was a moderator when I arrived) that seem to have this balance down better than others (including yours truely).

What do your posts say about you? What would new members think of your posts, and our forum? What can we do about it?

We can impliment the 'names reversed' way of posting.

Ask yourself these questions:

When praising your guy, ask youself if you are going over the top? Would you say this about the 'other guy' for a similar performance?

When defending your guy, accept that others wont see it your way. Ask yourself, 'names reversed' would I be defending him like this?

When critising the other guy, same as above.

Do two wrongs make a right? How is arguing with another Jerk making you look. We've all seen it when someone looks stupid arguing a silly point. Let them! Don't have your name associated with them.

Also, remember, you dont have to post. Ask youself if this really needs to be said. Will it add value to the conversation? Is it a good reflection of what people will think of you?

Finally, and this will sound odd, this site may not be for you. If your love or hate for a driver is so strong that you are blind to all others, maybe a fan (or other) site with a forum is for you. This is a Formula 1 discussion forum, not a driver praise/bash forum.

Anyway, take it or leave it, its up to you. But I for one, miss the old forum and will be making (no promises ) an effort to bring it back.

Sorry for the long post. [/RANT]

[Rossi # 46]

Amen!

[Adam43]

A lovely rant Wrex!

Basically everyone does benefit from a good look in the mirror. This is not a forum thing, but surely just how to interact with others.

This thread is, of course, open. However perhaps when discussing this point driver's names should be kept out of it. We are discussing the philosophy behind posting, not various incidents that pop up in every thread.

[Rossi # 46]

Amen!

Now...Who wants to make a confession?? Anyone??

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Wrex
Are you quick to praise or make excuses for 'your' guy? Are you quick to slag or critise the other guy?

This point I like particularly. One race, one lap, one corner, or one press conference, one sentence, one word seems to promote a barrage of posts claiming it categorically proves one point. Is this because the poster thinks this or because it proves his pre-determined point of view.

Think big. Think the big picture. These things are (almost) always worth discussing, but does it prove anything or is it just a small point or a small funny that is interesting?

Make the point, but maybe the post should reflect the importance of this point. Otherwise the 'defence' (can't think of a better word) will over react to. Which, of course, brings us to this (good) point:

Originally posted by Wrex
Do two wrongs make a right? How is arguing with another Jerk making you look.

[Rossi # 46]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
This point I like particularly. One race, one lap, one corner, or one press conference, one sentence, one word seems to promote a barrage of posts claiming it categorically proves one point. Is this because the poster thinks this or because it proves his pre-determined point of view.

Think big. Think the big picture. These things are (almost) always worth discussing, but does it prove anything or is it just a small point or a small funny that is interesting?

Amen!

Thats beautiful Adam.

Come on guys join in! Feel the love! It is all around the room!!

[Wrex]

Good point Adam


BTW, I'm not directing this at anyone in particular (but if you thought so maybe you should re-read it again ) and I know I have been guilty of the above as well.

I'm not saying you cant have a dig at driver X, or jump for joy when Driver B does well, we just need some moderation and balance.

I know this is achievable also, as most of my very good friends here are'nt fans of my driver/team and vice versa.

These were written for Parc Ferme, but I think the same applies here. If you have'nt read them, these are The 10 Commandments for posting.

[Rossi # 46]

Originally posted by Wrex
Good point Adam


BTW, I'm not directing this at anyone in particular (but if you thought so maybe you should re-read it again ) and I know I have been guilty of the above as well.

I'm not saying you cant have a dig at driver X, or jump for joy when Driver B does well, we just need some moderation and balance.

I know this is achievable also, as most of my very good friends here are'nt fans of my driver/team and vice versa.

These were written for Parc Ferme, but I think the same applies here. If you have'nt read them, these are The 10 Commandments for posting.

Amen!

Come on everyone, lets all gather round and hold hands.

Now, who wants to lead off with a song??

[Ralf's Girl]

Good posts, Wrex and Adam. There isn't much that I can add, except that I agree wholeheartedly.

Now, about that song...

[Rossi # 46]

Originally posted by Ralf's Girl
Good posts, Wrex and Adam. There isn't much that I can add, except that I agree wholeheartedly.

Now, about that song...

Oh isnt this great guy's and gal's, i can really feel the love in here at the moment and it's getting stronger by the minute!

Come on Ralf's Girl...lead the way with that song!

[Logrence]

I agree, guys - I fully intend to think about my posts from now on before I...do something or other.

[corkholio]

Good post Wrex. I have no problem admitting I have been guilty of that, and you are probably referring to me anyway.

However I must say that I try my best not to take posts in here personally, and that to me most of the time it's nothing more than trash talking in the bashing threads, which can be fun if everyone doesn't try to pop a vein, as long as they pertain to the drivers' racing. In the end no matter how good of a point you end up making not everyone will agree.

[Valve Bounce]

Wrex, you have a short memory. I think I can safely say that I've been here longer than you. Driver bashes have gone on since I arrived, and if you don't believe me, try reading the posts from earlier years when the SchM bashes were endless and certain people went ape whenever the topic of a SchM championship was discussed. Certain posters used to go into a frenzy, to the extent that I felt uncomfortable just logging onto this forum.
I must say that the forum is much more poster friendly nowadays.
I don't even mind driver bashes anymore as I just tend to skip those posts. However, I would just make one suggestion: if everyone would just respect the feelings of the poster(s) at whom he adresses his posts, there wouldn't be any problem.

P.S. if you reversed the names, Ralf would be Flar, and JPM would be unpronouncable.

[climb]

Wrex,
your post sounds like an etiquette-memento; and for such, I like it.
But I'd like to underline that ultimately that's not a problem of bashing this or that driver.
Ralf, TGF, JPM, they are all supermillionaire boys, and certainly won't get their nights disturbed by ten-tenths fora!
The main problem is that respect must be kept always between posters: sometimes it seems like somebody attack driver X, not just to bash him, but because he knows that poster Y is a fan of him: somewhat like a cross-revenge against poster Y.
Is this just an impression of mine, or does someone have similar opinion?

BTW: dear Rossi #46: all your "amens" are no more strictly necessary

This way

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by climb
The main problem is that respect must be kept always between posters: sometimes it seems like somebody attack driver X, not just to bash him, but because he knows that poster Y is a fan of him: somewhat like a cross-revenge against poster Y.
Is this just an impression of mine, or does someone have similar opinion?

It works for me. Apparently we're not allowed to express an opinion concerning certain drivers because in my case (as yesterday) I'm too old. Interesting that I'm allowed a race licence, I can cross the road all by myself and yet senile dementia has set in because I have an opinion.

Saying that, at times I do get angry, especilally when asked to justify my opinion, which is just that, an opinion. It justifies itself doesn't it?

Now where did I put my zimmer frame?

[Bononi]

Great posts Wrex & Adam.

I just have to say that I felt quilty about bashing drivers. I'm just too bloody emotional and passionate about that. I can't cope when somebody says something against my favourite driver, and sometimes I think I deserve a suspension for this...

Having said that, please don't start bashing my driver, please.

[RWC]

I am actually super fair with drivers - tend not to get into the fan thing and root for one or the other.I just LOVE a good battle/drive by ANYone
I do admit i get grumpy though-this in entirely to do with the criminals that think they run f1

Oh,and the rare stupid drivers behaviour(yes DC i mean you)

[429CJ]

The world is not perfect place, get over it!

[Knowlesy]

I wonder if the Jos fans are reading this thread? They have gone awfully quiet!

[R]

Originally posted by climb
The main problem is that respect must be kept always between posters: sometimes it seems like somebody attack driver X, not just to bash him, but because he knows that poster Y is a fan of him: somewhat like a cross-revenge against poster Y.
Is this just an impression of mine, or does someone have similar opinion?

Yes, and it's called trolling or flame baiting, and we do have them here. They aren't interested in having a clean discussion, but they only post in order to trigger a response. The other thing they have in common is that they sooner or later get banned from this site.

These days, when I'm no longer a moderator, I don't read the flame baiter's posts. Frankly I have better things to do with my time.

---

Excellent posts by Wrex and Adam. This is a discussion forum, people, not a flaming or bashing forum. If you discuss in a fair manner, it is possible to disagree with someone and still retain a friendly tone with them.

A prime example of that is someone who has posted above, namely Ralf's Girl. She's a Ralf fan and I'm a Montoya fan, now there you have the ingredients for a hateful relationship not, because she is always very fair in her comments, she has never bashed Montoya for no good reason or to stir up a response, nor has she re-arranged the facts to make Ralf look good, nor belittled anyone else's opinion. Needless to say, she has earned my deepest respect. Naturally she sees things from a completely different perspective to me, but that's what makes a discussion forum interesting - if I didn't see it that way, I would have been at a fan site, but that would have been a far too narrow scope for me. The main reason for being at 10 Tenths, for me, is the opportunity you get to see things from different perspectives, maybe see things from an angle you would never have thought of yourself. If anything, this should make us more tolerant, more open minded, not the opposite.

I mentioned Ralf's Girl, but there are other examples of people who I often disagree with, but have the greatest respect for: Wrex, Red, Inigo Montoya, Gt_R, corkholio and there are others. I could have mentioned many more. The lesson to be learned is that to earn anyone's respect, it does not matter what your opinion is - it is the way you present it, and the level of respect you show others, that matters. Also it doesn't hurt to re-read your post before you press that submit button, and if you've written something in the heat of the moment, have a second think and ask yourself: "Do I really want to say that?" Everything you write is out there, and is read by many people who you know, and also by many people who you don't know. I know for a fact that we have many readers who never post (because some of them have told me). It's worth thinking a little of the impression you give others of yourself, and indeed of 10 Tenths as a community.

[Rossi # 46]

Originally posted by climb


BTW: dear Rossi #46: all your "amens" are no more strictly necessary

This way

Amen to that!

[Bononi]

Looks like Wrex is converting many disciples here !

[Red]

I do believe that this thread deserves at least 1 "Amen" reply





Oh, what's that you said? Hmm... ok then. But it'll be the first "Cheers" reply

[Liz]

Occasionally people become a little too sensitive too; it's called 'bashing' by some to say "I wonder what TGF was saying to himself as Alonso lapped him?" In fact, there are some overly sensitive people who believe calling him TGF is 'bashing'. It's not my fault his name is so hard to spell. (These same people can't even spell Michael -- it's not Micheal).

Considering some of the hammer and tongs arguments we Senna v. Prost people used to have back before there was such a thing as an Internet, what you see here is pretty tame. (Of course in those days there was no permanent record of what we said either, so it could be forgotten.)

Peter, I too have been told that I am 'too old' to have an opinion on Formula One drivers, usually by those who believe that Formula One started in 1994 and don't want to be told any differently. As granny always advised, I just consider the source.

[Jordi]

For me, it's just like in real life. I want to be respected and I do not want to be seen as an a**hole... And may it sound like big ego from my part, but I think I've earned respect from the people here. I like Jacques but I don't go around blindly following him... I prefer to shut up rather to say ridiculous or false things...