New Generation of nearly men?

Dan Fielden · 10 Oct 2005, 08:20 (Ref:1429211)

As a Montoya fan it pains me to ask the question is he going to be one of the new generation of nearly men. The way i see it we have got the new Hakkinen and Schumacher battle in the form of Alonso and Raikkonen, but i just feel that Montoya, Button and Webber are all going to be the new versions of Coulthard Barrichello and Ralf?

What do you think. Say it aint so

Marbot · 10 Oct 2005, 08:25 (Ref:1429224)

It aint so.

climb · 10 Oct 2005, 08:27 (Ref:1429226)

You may be wrong but you may be right

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2005, 09:17 (Ref:1429291)

Still too soon to judge, in all 3 cases.

Montoya - Is he gonna regret not taking the 03 WDC when it was his for the taking? I still think he'll get one more bite at the WDC Cherry and that will be next year. But as i've said elsewhere, i now think that in terms of that moment of brilliance or whatever it is that the most talented racers have and make them the most exciting to watch, he has at least one rival based on Suzuka - Alonso.

Webber - he's got it all, aggression, qualy skill, composure (few shunts this year down to frustration more than any lck of judgement in my book) so just give him the car... but i'm not sure he's at the level of the current Top 4.

Button - well, if you can get one read the artivle in the 'Sunday Times' mag from yesterday and that will tell you all you need to know...

Mr V · 10 Oct 2005, 10:39 (Ref:1429402)

Juan Pablo has had the measure of Kimi over the last 3 or 4 races, so who knows where he would have finished yesterday? Could have taken the win himself.

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2005, 10:41 (Ref:1429405)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

Juan Pablo has had the measure of Kimi over the last 3 or 4 races, so who knows where he would have finished yesterday? Could have taken the win himself.

I agree, but i'm starting to get depressed with the amount of times he's walking away from wrecks and in spite of my gut instinct telling me i know he's the most talented guy out there, i am starting to think that won't be enough...

NO1SPECIAL · 10 Oct 2005, 10:47 (Ref:1429416)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

I agree, but i'm starting to get depressed with the amount of times he's walking away from wrecks and in spite of my gut instinct telling me i know he's the most talented guy out there, i am starting to think that won't be enough...

Keep the faith chunterer - I'm no fan of his but I think he's pretty bloody good...even if he is a pr**k. Sometimes racers are just unlucky and have bad stretches/seasons.

Sodemo · 10 Oct 2005, 10:48 (Ref:1429420)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

I agree, but i'm starting to get depressed with the amount of times he's walking away from wrecks and in spite of my gut instinct telling me i know he's the most talented guy out there, i am starting to think that won't be enough...

He needs to learn patience when dealing with potential track scuffles, and not presume that every driver is going to do the "correct" thing.

Logrence · 10 Oct 2005, 10:49 (Ref:1429421)

Alonso, Raikkonen, Schumacher - these are the guys of the next few years.

Amongst those who have apparently shown promise but will never amount to anything are; Mark Webber, Jenson Button, Juan-Pablo Montoya, Ralf Schumacher, Giancarlo Fisichella, Takuma Sato (although more of a nearly-nearly-man)...none of these will win championships. It's slim pickings at the top.

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2005, 11:01 (Ref:1429434)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

He needs to learn patience when dealing with potential track scuffles, and not presume that every driver is going to do the "correct" thing.

You're bang on with that assessment.

But Logrence, i think that the MS myth will finally explode, even if he does get parity of equipment again next year...i don't think he's got the raw edge/racecraft that either Alonso or Raikkonen showed yesterday, or for that matter, that JPM has patently illustrated on those occassions when he has those events when he's peerless and doesn't total it!

Logrence · 10 Oct 2005, 11:03 (Ref:1429437)

The Michael Schumacher myth will finally explode after seven world championships?

Halsey · 10 Oct 2005, 11:06 (Ref:1429441)

Wait for next year. I have a feeling that Montoya will be right up there with Raikkonen and Alonso. If you look at how things have gone this year, it would've been very possible for him to be the one who was fighting Alonso for the WDC. Unfortunately he broke his shoulder early in the season, and up until the last few races he really hasn't shaken off the lasting effects of the injury.

I know these things didn't happen, but for the sake of interest we'll presume they didn't. If Pizzonia hadn't taken him out at Spa, or had Monteiro rear-end him in Turkey, and not been disqualified after leading in Canada, he'd have been very close to Raikkonen and Alonso. And if he'd raced at Bahrain and Imola, well... Who knows.

As for the others, I certainly hope they don't join the long list of talented drivers that could've been, but never quite were. I think it's still too early to tell whether or not that will be the case.

Mr V · 10 Oct 2005, 11:09 (Ref:1429445)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halsey

I know these things didn't happen, but for the sake of interest we'll presume they didn't. If Pizzonia hadn't taken him out at Spa, or had Monteiro rear-end him in Turkey, and not been disqualified after leading in Canada, he'd have been very close to Raikkonen and Alonso. And if he'd raced at Bahrain and Imola, well... Who knows.

Agreed. With regards to Spa and Turkey, he proberbly wouldn't have been taken out had he not been in the position of having to support Kimi, but thats life (or racing in this case), roll on next season

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2005, 11:21 (Ref:1429463)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logrence

The Michael Schumacher myth will finally explode after seven world championships?

The myth that it it wasn't the equipment advantage that carried him to most of them?! What i mean is that pure speed he has in abundance, pure technical ability and strength of mind to analyse a situation he has in abundance, but is he capable of the sort of moves that Alonso pulled yesterday and JPM have pulled in recent past? The way he almost pulled up to a standstill going through 130R after Fernando had pulled that supreme move on him suggests that he would never have tried that in a million years, but it's alright for him to shove people on the grass if they try to overtake him !!

Fernando's move was a nice way for him to remind MS of Silverstone 2003, but in a clever, clean, incisive and fair fashion!

However, neither of these 2 are the point of this thread. JPM for me is the nearest thing to a Gilles of the current generation, but onmce Gilles got established even he didn't have the samne amount of stacks as JPM does, whether it's his fault or not.

I don't want to suggest that JPM needs to remove his ability to pull off the moves that only he is ultimately capabple of but somehow as onster says just wait that little bit longer before doing it...now he has the car (and assuming he will again in 2006) he doesn't need to drive so crazily in the opening laps - i could understand it when he was in the Williams which more often than not required him to do as much as possible early on because it would go backwards soon after but he could maybe tone it down a little bit...

I've always seen him as the real dark horse, the guy that would vanquish allcomers in the right environment but i don't know... yesterday to me seemed to be a turning point and made me think that there really are other drivers equally as brilliant but more composed to boot... can he really sustain a season long challenge against those 2? or will he turn out like i say as the driver who is spectacular to watch but is simply out to prove that he's the fastest and not that fussed about winning a title?

Heebeegeetee · 10 Oct 2005, 11:22 (Ref:1429465)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Fielden

As a Montoya fan it pains me to ask the question is he going to be one of the new generation of nearly men. The way i see it we have got the new Hakkinen and Schumacher battle in the form of Alonso and Raikkonen, but i just feel that Montoya, Button and Webber are all going to be the new versions of Coulthard Barrichello and Ralf?

What do you think. Say it aint so

I wouldn't put DC and RB in the same class as Ralf. I wouldn't rank anyone with Ralf, except maybe Fisi after yesterdays performance. No-one out there is as bad as Ralf.

However, I too am dissapointed with JPM, after watching him do terrific stuff in Indy cars. (The proper Indy cars I mean), but time will tell. I think he's a much better racer than Kimi, but Kimi seems to be naturally quicker.

We'll see.

Halsey · 10 Oct 2005, 11:25 (Ref:1429469)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

With regards to Spa and Turkey, he proberbly wouldn't have been taken out had he not been in the position of having to support Kimi, but thats life (or racing in this case), roll on next season

Aye.

Gerben24 · 10 Oct 2005, 11:26 (Ref:1429472)

Think about this one: Is Raikkonen going to be the new Stirling Moss?

**chunterer** · 10 Oct 2005, 11:30 (Ref:1429477)

So we've got a Raikkonen as the new Moss
Alonso as the new Senna (or rather Stewart IMO)
JPM as a modern day Gilles
Button as a Prost

So what does that make Schuey?!

SpawnyWhippet · 10 Oct 2005, 11:56 (Ref:1429508)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heebeegeetee

I wouldn't put DC and RB in the same class as Ralf. I wouldn't rank anyone with Ralf, except maybe Fisi after yesterdays performance. No-one out there is as bad as Ralf.

I can't agree enough. If Ralf's surname was anything else, he would never have made it past F3.

**John Turner** · 10 Oct 2005, 11:57 (Ref:1429510)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heebeegeetee

No-one out there is as bad as Ralf.

I really don't understand that view and I certainly don't agree with it!

SpawnyWhippet · 10 Oct 2005, 12:05 (Ref:1429519)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

The myth that it it wasn't the equipment advantage that carried him to most of them?! What i mean is that pure speed he has in abundance, pure technical ability and strength of mind to analyse a situation he has in abundance, but is he capable of the sort of moves that Alonso pulled yesterday and JPM have pulled in recent past? The way he almost pulled up to a standstill going through 130R after Fernando had pulled that supreme move on him suggests that he would never have tried that in a million years, but it's alright for him to shove people on the grass if they try to overtake him !!

Much as I don't like MS, I can't believe you really think MS's performance is due to his car!! Every team he's joined was been running a dog of a car that he dragged way beyond its natural position, and he has never been equalled by any team mate. His feedback has helped make each team both WDC and WCC. Part of MS's ability is that he puts himself in the position where he doesn't need to make daring overtakes. I think his biggest problem this year lies in the Bridgestones, not his driving.

NO1SPECIAL · 10 Oct 2005, 12:06 (Ref:1429520)

Me either John Turner. I saw a good analysis of Ralf vs JPM and they came out pretty much dead even for their time at Williams - now how could that be if Ralf is garbage?
And i don't know why people are writing off webber and button, they haven't had the equipment yet...it's no wonder they haven't won races.

**Adam43** · 10 Oct 2005, 12:32 (Ref:1429534)

I guess this thread proves and the Kimi greatest thread you are only as good as your last race! Or that we have a high proportion of goldfish registered

Nearly. It seems we are talking about nearly world champions. There have been only 29 world champions and a lot of nearly men.

Kicking-back · 10 Oct 2005, 12:33 (Ref:1429535)

Yes it's funny that after Brazil a lot were saying "Kimi's not THAT good, JPM is the messiah!"

SpawnyWhippet · 10 Oct 2005, 12:34 (Ref:1429536)

My problem with Ralf is that more often than not, he seems to hit another car or the scnerary. He's a German version of Taku. On the occasions when he actually finishes a reace, his speed is inconsistent and I think there are plenty of drivers out there who could do a better job given the opportunity.

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