Skirts and overtaking

[Pingguest]

A couple of weeks ago, I read in a Dutch Formula 1-magazine that the lack of overtaking is not caused by the amount of downforce and aero grip. According to Eddie Irvine the lack of overtaking is caused by the manner the teams create downforce. Especially the front wing kills the possibilities of overtaking. Eddie Irvine said that the FIA should force the teams to create downforce at the underside of the car.

So, I think that the FIA should restrict the wings on the car, reintroduce the skirts with some limits and abolish the obligation to have a wooden board at the underside of the car.

But why has the FIA banned the skirts? As far as I know, the FIA wanted to reduce the speed in the corners.

What do you think about it?

[pirenzo]

Something like that.
Its really I think more like when you follow a car closely the turbulent air coming off the back of the lead car upsets the front wing of the following car so you get less front end grip, i.e. understeer, which in fast corners will cause you to drop away from the lead car. This is why slow corners leading onto straights are better because less grip overall is needed, and this effect is much reduced.

On an ITV webchat earlier this year, Martin Brundle made that point, as well as saying because the current cars have so little low speed mechanical grip, drivers are less willing to go off line to pass, because they're at a much greater risk of spinning off in the process. Not only that, but finding a 10m advantage in a 100m braking zone is so unlikely, that you need long straights in order for cars to just draft by one another.

[DougK]

I think you are wrong ;-)

I'm sure there is a rule in the concorde agreement which states that all teams must agree to an overtaking manoeuvre before its allowed to take place!!!!

[Adam43]

There is some sense in this and it has been suggested before.

However I would still keep the ban on skirts. The skirts improved any underfloor downforce by stopping air entering from the side. The problem is that if the seel is broken then the car suddenly loses a lot of grip and it can be dangerous in many ways.

[sonic]

I think Eddie is a bit out of touch...

The main area teams have won aero grip in the past few seasons is actually with the diffuser and doing clever stuff that creates that very vacum effect under the car.

The latest 2005 regs get them to cut all that stuff out and also raise the front wing higher to help limit the 'suck' effect.

If the rule makers had focused on reducing the size of the wings on top they'd also be reducing drag and thus actualy increase straightline speeds, which they didn't want.

By reducing the diffuser effect we may even actually see a return to slipstreaming - because at present it doesn't work, meaning you need to gain momentum off a corner rather than on the straight itself. Hopefully this combined with harder tyres we may see braking distances increased and thus offer the chance of the big lunge.

which would be nice.

[RWC]

The truth is somewhere between what pirenzo and sonic are saying.

The most sensible thing for the fia (notice lack of capitals) to do is ban wings alltogether.
THEN have paid experts work out a sensible system and rules for limiting and making safe any undercar downforce.

That's kind of what they are doing now but it's like trying to bail out the titanic with an eyedropper.

By the way sonic-speeds wouldn't increase much if wings were banned because the cars would be able to accelerate as brutally without the grip.
But more importantly...the corner speeds would be *much* lower,which is where the main danger is.

Another point related to sonic's comment on the danger of skirted cars-the current winged cars are also stupidly ,unnesesarily dangerous because once they start sliding sideways thay lose massive amounts of downforce and thence braking ability.
Once spun and sliding backwards they have LIFT from the wings and no brakes at all!!!

[Logrence]

Have any regs officially been laid down for next season yet?

[Snrub]

Why would "the seal" get broken underneath cars? I fail to see how this would be an issue, especially considering how modern Champ Cars have undertrays.

RWC has a good point about winged F1 cars, I believe that's why drivers find them so finicy to drive at the limits.

Everyone starts to act silly when the subject of reducing downforce is mentioned with their worries of decreased drag. F1 cars need to be slowed anyway, so make such changes with a reduction in power. Change the displacement or have an intake restrictor.

Regarding sonic's diffuser comments, I think we can all agree that there's been more passing in the last couple of years, perhaps the change in aero design is the result?

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Snrub
Why would "the seal" get broken underneath cars? I fail to see how this would be an issue, especially considering how modern Champ Cars have undertrays.

Running over a kerb could do it. Certainly any contact would. They also would be ususeptible to debris on the circuit.

I like the idea of a limited downforc from underfloor aero, just not with skirts.

Also some full underfloor aero could be good in that it may move the centre of the force nearer the middle of the car rather than the back. At the moment the rear diffuser provides a lot of grip and this means that the front wing needs to be effective to create a good balance. Remember when they used to not bother with front wings in the early '80s!?