70s Saloons - Top Hat

[SNH]

saw the Top Hat 70s saloons yesterday at Mallory, 30 minute race. What a great idea. Reckon my Capri will be there next year! Longer races. Anyone else interested?

[bolide]

Did they have their own race or were they added into an existing race?

There was nothing in the leaflet or entry form about there being a 70s saloon race - I just checked!


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[Ian Sowman]

I believe they were in with the GTAs.

[Al Weyman]

What technical regs do they run to?

[bolide]

OK, I re-read my Top Hat details and hidden in the GTA listings it says: "Further class for 70s Gp.1 and 2-type saloons". Bugger! I would have enjoyed that!

Al - the regs they run to aren't strictly defined. Julius likes to run his races to entertain the drivers rather than the nitpickers. So my BMW 2002 won't win anything next year, but I'll have fun trying!


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[Al Weyman]

I could be interested in entering my 70 Camaro when I finally get it screwed back together.

[bolide]

Al

I always think Julius's first rule is "Entertain!", so the Camaro should fit right in - it will make a rude noise and go sideways, won't it?

BTW I'll nudge thatorangething and get him to contact you regarding his IROC car. It looks fierce but unloved at the moment. Got a spare V8 lying around???


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[Al Weyman]

Well I have just finished the engine for the 70 car, got a bit delayed with a bad back but getting there slowly. It is not u;timate spec by anymeans but should be good for 425 to 450bhp and should be able to squeal those little 225 tyres OK and will definitely make the right noises.

What is the state of orangethinghy's car at the moment, I have a few things I have to source and have got to build another engine but have most of the bits including a full drysump system with proper Weaver pump and Moon Eyes tank and Hamburger pan and all the Aeroquip and fittings which I found on eBay in the US. I guess the fact that there is two of these things in the country effects it's value so I will have to be careful how much I put into it but I would like to restore it back to some of its former glory.

[bolide]

Al, thatorangething's Camaro is still sans engine & box, but most of the rest is intact bar a few panels. It's more than a weekend's work, though!

I have an ex-Nascar Tilton pedalbox & master cylinders and a complete MSD ignition system if you need one. Dang that eBay!!!

Email me at cars@bolide.co.uk and I'll pass it on to thatorangething as soon as he gets his email sorted


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[Al Weyman]

MSD sounds nice, I could use that, the Tilton gear sounds what is on the IROC racer my other cars still have the original Chevy mastercylinder and servo (don't laugh) always worked OK though. My car came with a wet sump engine that I have rebuilt for the 70's car and I have a 4 bolt mains lump that I am going to redo for the IROC with dry sumping. It does have the correct gearbox I believe and the Ford rear axle (thats right Ford, that was not mentioned in the GM ad's of the period). They used some odd Delco electronic ignition originally but I doubt if a working one of those is in existance. I have a hell of alot of work on mine as well. Worse thing is some buggar cut the rear quarters off and replaced them with glass fibre so I am trying to source rear quarters for a post 77 but at the moment they only make them for a pre 74 which are slightly different. Once I source these I can get back on the case as a couple of the US suppliers have indicated they are going to reproduce them in the future.

Does Orangething have the original seat and instruments in his car?

[SNH]

if you are interested in the 70s saloons, it would be worth going on the Top Hat site, (www.tophatracing.co.uk), & registering interest or even better, calling Julius on 01926-885835. They are looking at the interest to ake sure it is worth running it next year. The more interest the more races. The longer format seems the way to go. Next years calendar includes Castle Combe, Donington, Pau, Dijon, Brands Hatch, Chimay, Mallory Park and Spa at present, so they get good circuits.

[bolide]

I second that. Julius runs the best race series in the UK as far as I'm concerned. I've raced in the Best of British and Cloth Cap and if he's going to run a separate 70s saloons series in 2005 I will enter that

The HSCC 70s saloons series has, so far, been a bit of a damp squib. There seem to be just two regulars (a BMW 2002tii and a Capri 3-litre) so they run with the Historic Roadsports. They place a strict limit on car modifications

The CSCC series, now known as the CTRCC, run a Classic Group 1 series but it's pretty hardcore

I've not seen any regs for Julius's 70s saloons but I've looked at those for the HSCC and CTRCC and they almost look as though they've been specifically designed to make life difficult. In one series you can dry sump - in the other you can't. In one you can use perspex windows - in the other you can't

Personally I'd like to do longer races so Top Hat is the best choice - at Mallory they had 15 minutes practice and a 30-minute race for £235


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[josvandeperre]

Originally posted by bolide
it's pretty hardcore

umm whilst I agree about the entertainment of Julius's series when I was doing G1 no-one ever showed me any porn - what did I miss - what do you mean ?

[bolide]

What I meant was the CTRCC is for full-on race cars whereas the HSCC is primarily aimed at road-legal, slightly modified road cars in the Historic Roadsports, 70s Roadsports and 70s Saloons series

You don't often hear cars revving to 9000 rpm in the HSCC (or you shouldn't) but it seems pretty common with the CTRCC

There seems to be a huge gap between the two series in terms of regs and preparation and I hope Julius ends up with something somewhere inbetween - at least at first!


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[SNH]

from what I understand Julius' 70s series includes cars running to HSCC, CTCRC and other's regs. The benefits are, (IMHO), that the series goes to good circuits, long races, good grids, good support from Top Hat, (including hospitality, food, etc). I have raced with the CSCC/CTCRC in Historics, Post-Historics, Pre-83 Group 1s, Pre-90s since 1989. I think I prefer the 30-45 minute races 7-8 times a year to a quick 10 lap dash 10-12 times a year. The cost of racing in terms of weekends dedicated to it are less, and the track time per £ is higher.

[Al Weyman]

Originally posted by bolide
What I meant was the CTRCC is for full-on race cars whereas the HSCC is primarily aimed at road-legal, slightly modified road cars in the Historic Roadsports, 70s Roadsports and 70s Saloons series

You don't often hear cars revving to 9000 rpm in the HSCC (or you shouldn't) but it seems pretty common with the CTRCC

There seems to be a huge gap between the two series in terms of regs and preparation and I hope Julius ends up with something somewhere inbetween - at least at first!


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

Bolide, forgive me if I have this wrong but surely you have that round the wrong way. I have been preparing this Camaro to CTRCC rules and I would say thay are far tighter than HSCC regs that allow for example the use of the awesome 6.2 short stroke small block Chevy engine configuration, a configuration that was never in a production model or even an homologation special, basically to achieve this you need a Bowtie block that can bore to 4 1/8 inch and a 350 stroke crank, big money to build (certain 1st Gen Camaros and Mustangs in the HSCC I have read cost in excess of £100,000 to build!) This configuration is not allowed in CTRCC nore are perspex windows ad glass fibre panels. I think CTRCC pre 73 Historic rules are far more akin to a road car than any Historic I mean I have even have had to fit a working handbrake to this car at considerable expense as I had converted it previously to discs alround.

I looked on the Tophat site and saw no reference to 70 series that would allow my car in, maybe it would be an idea to update that to entice more competitors in as it looks good.

[SNH]

Al - as far as I know your car would be eligible. Put your name down on their contact list....

[Al Weyman]

I will do thanks. I

[Peter Mallett]

As with all new things it will take time to get going. Must say that the format suits me because I can pick races to suit my geographical location.

Of course it would be good to do every round.

Of 22 entries eight were 70's saloons and the first three would have been closer if the winner hadn't slapped on brand new yoko's and thus gained 2 secs per lap over us on the Dunlops. But that's fair enough. Next year I believe tyres will be standardised. L Sections for GTA's and D84's for 70's Saloons.

As I said elsewhere there was known to be some reluctance about the inclusion of this class but I found all those I spoke to, to be pleasent and friendly.

[bolide]

Who entered and what were they driving?

I think their inclusion with the GTAs will create grief if they start winning overall, but I suspect and hope that Julius will spin the saloons off into a separate series next year

Of course that depends on there being enough track time to add an extra race and Top Hat days are pretty busy as it is. It'll also require enough entries to make it viable, but eight is a good start and a lot more than the HSCC have managed so far


Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[bolide]

Originally posted by Al Weyman
Bolide, forgive me if I have this wrong but surely you have that round the wrong way.

That's entirely possible! I think it depends on the car you're running, which series you look at and how much detailed knowledge of the club approach you have. I know a little about the "HSCC way" but nothing about the CTRCC apart from watching a few races. That's why I described them as "hardcore" - the Capris & etc at Thruxton were superb!

CSCC Thruxton 2001
http://www.bolide.co.uk/actions/image.taf?link=thrx2001

That was three years ago, though, and much may have changed since then

It'd be nice to build a car to period Group 1 spec but I don't suppose that'd solve anything because you could probably run it in neither HSCC nor CTRCC. I think Julius would welcome it though

Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[Peter Mallett]

3 Capri 3.0s - David Margulies, Richard Langeveld and yours truly.
1 Triumph Dolomite Sprint - Ken Clarke
1 Alfa Romeo Alfetta GTV - Stephen Chase (Ex Dealer Team car in "Jon Dooley" colours)
1 Rover P6 3500 - Peter Holton
1 BMW 2002 - Richard Tyzak.
1 Rover SD1 - Tim Scott-Andrews.

Results were:

Capri, Alfa, Capri, Alfa, Alfa, Rover P6, Alfa, Triumph, Alfa, BMW, Alfa, Alfa, Rover SD1, Alfa, Capri, Alfa.

16 from an entry of 22. We also had a Lancia Fulvia with us but Louise retired it in practice.

Including these cars provided a good grid and whilst they run on L section tyres they are in a lot of cases "lightweight" specials so speed is not a problem.

Also as I said, everybody seemed pretty good about having us out with them so I don't see any problem with it. Indeed the only examples of heavy contact were between Alfas.

As far as separate grids go. We've got to have the cars first!

[big andy]

i e mail top hat to see if my mini, which i raced in classic thunder this year would would be welcome thay said it wouldn t be welcome as all cars have to comply 1966 group 2 regs ?????

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Indeed the only examples of heavy contact were between Alfas.

I think it only fair to point out that, at least for the two we had at Gerrards, contact was the result of spins, not over-aggressive driving.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by big andy
i e mail top hat to see if my mini, which i raced in classic thunder this year would would be welcome thay said it wouldn t be welcome as all cars have to comply 1966 group 2 regs ?????

That's for Top Hat Historics. The 70's saloons cover pre 1980 Group 1 or Group 2.

Dave. I wasn't suggesting bad driving, just making the comment.