ERC Track Rankings!

[schanche]

With the 10rd ERC calender confirmed and the ranking system in place just what is Involved and how are they ranked and Im surprised to see England placed 7th with 119.4 points and what can they do to Improve? Was it due to Lydden holding the first round and not a full entry unlike later in the championship?

[chunder]

I would say that Lydden is not the greatest track for the modern cars.

It was amazing when you had slick and cut clisk tyres coz the loose/tarmac bits were fast and promoted sliding and care from the drivers.

the modern tyres for me are cheaper yes but teh cars look awful on tar. if you watch Isachsen and teh top guys they are on the handbrake on nearly every turn trying toget the back round as the grooves tyres simply dont get enough grip.

The Joker was not great either at Lydden, was insane to see a car block it! Needs some work there.

[mivec]

Originally Posted by chunder

...
The Joker was not great either at Lydden, was insane to see a car block it! Needs some work there.

For me Lydden is one of the tracks that don't need a joker lap.

[leonidas]

I am deeply suspicious about these ranking systems which seem like an dubious attempt to provide an 'objective' justification for including certain tracks/countries and not others - when we all know its all about money and politics really!

Lydden is still a great track for passing and a challenge for drivers. You certainly can't say that for all the tracks on the calendar. Its only real problem is that there aren't many GB drivers in 1a and 2 but hopefully that will change in the next few years as British rallycross comes more into line with the rest of Europe.

[chunder]

It is a great track, sadly I just think it is not suited to the modern ERC cars.

Modern cars and tyres are built for tight, twisty tracks with hairpins and tricky sections.

Lydden is fast, sweeping with long corners. you can not hanbrake at the Elbow or Chessons!!

If you watch guys like Eriksson, Jernberg and Hunsbedt they are on the handbrake all the time to get the car to turn, even on fast corners. They just dont suit the track.

Still great to watch, and I hope the joker is better for 2010

[Dutch-RX]

@Leonidas
Tell us about the money and politics. You seems to know more about this. Are you saying that some tracks pay for having an ERC event?

[PhergAthor]

The points system works a lot different than giving an overall subjective rating to how the racing was or if the track is fun to drive.

First of all the points are given 50 / 50 by drivers and observers. That makes politics more difficult as a lot of people are involved.

The core of the rating is formed by rating facilities and organisation.

Facilities: basics as the paddock, toilets, electricity, warm water, showers, state of the loose section (before and after racing), safety fencing, state of the tarmac, starting system, etc... but also: VIP facilities, parking, press-center, internet connection, etc...

Organisation: is the timetable respected, clerck of the course, marchals, the extraction of broke down cars, etc.. but also: how are the observers welcomed, how are they lodged, food & drinks etc...

You would be surprised about the importance of things the general public will never notice in the ratings of an event.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by PhergAthor

First of all the points are given 50 / 50 by drivers and observers. That makes politics more difficult as a lot of people are involved.

Nope, the current factor of the observation system is:

Observer 100%
Stewards 50%
Drivers 12.5%
Press 12.5%

[PhergAthor]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

Nope, the current factor of the observation system is:

Observer 100%
Stewards 50%
Drivers 12.5%
Press 12.5%

Thanks for correcting me. That puts a lot of weight in the observers opinion.

But my main point was that a lot of things are considered in ranking an event, and if the racing was exciting is not one of them.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by PhergAthor

Thanks for correcting me. That puts a lot of weight in the observers opinion.

But my main point was that a lot of things are considered in ranking an event, and if the racing was exciting is not one of them.

Yep, one FIA observer only has more "weight" than plenty stewards, drivers and ERPA members together.

Yep again, if racing is exciting or boring, – it don’t matter for the reports.

[Dutch-RX]

That's cleared up then.
We all know now that money and politics are not involved then.
Plain facts an figures are the terms made up by 4 different parties that makes the decision if a track is in or out.

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by schanche

…Im surprised to see England placed 7th with 119.4 points and what can they do to Improve?…

FIA observer bribery!

[WJM]

There is an empty observers report on the FIA website. It can help to see what are the criteria they use and how important they are. For example not putting up a FIA flag costs you 10 points right there.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...ort%202009.pdf

[Chessmsport]

So where are these results published would interesting to see how they compare to those from a spectators viewpoint.

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by chunder

Lydden is fast, sweeping with long corners. you can not hanbrake at the Elbow or Chessons!!

Try telling Ash Simpson that... I've followed him round there hundreds of times with both back wheels locked and his elbow nearly through the roof on the bar!

[MESHGA]

Originally Posted by StockHatch782

Try telling Ash Simpson that... I've followed him round there hundreds of times with both back wheels locked and his elbow nearly through the roof on the bar!

I have no idea how many times ive lapped Lydden over the last 20 odd years (god that makes me feel old)!!!! but cant think of 1 time ive handbraked !! Left footed yes on paddock ,elbow and hairpin all the time

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by WJM

There is an empty observers report on the FIA website. It can help to see what are the criteria they use and how important they are. For example not putting up a FIA flag costs you 10 points right there.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...ort%202009.pdf

Which demonstrates just how daft it is!

Of course you have to have minimum standards but the main issue is does the track produce good racing? The quality of the stewards room, the website, the public toilets and the media centre don't make or break an event.

Realistically it really all comes down to the FIA observer. If he says 'no' you are going to be a long way down the rankings whatever the public and the drivers think.

[Dutch-RX]

What does the public and drivers think then?

[rx-guru]

MHO: You had to have "minimum standards" in the early days of the ERC, but these days a fully professional racing series needs professional track and organising standards. Good racing can happen on a potato field as well, no question, but the 10 ERC rounds should take place at the 10 best venues in Europe. GB or Lydden is still in the game, so what is the prob with place 7 in the rankings?

[mivec]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

MHO: You had to have "minimum standards" in the early days of the ERC, but these days a fully professional racing series needs professional track and organising standards. Good racing can happen on a potato field as well, no question, but the 10 ERC rounds should take place at the 10 best venues in Europe. GB or Lydden is still in the game, so what is the prob with place 7 in the rankings?

This should be: 10 best venues from 10 different country's. Some country's have 2 or more good tracks.

[Hickey]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

MHO: You had to have "minimum standards" in the early days of the ERC, but these days a fully professional racing series needs professional track and organising standards. Good racing can happen on a potato field as well, no question, but the 10 ERC rounds should take place at the 10 best venues in Europe. GB or Lydden is still in the game, so what is the prob with place 7 in the rankings?

Good point, well made! The other way to look at it is that Lydden has done a better job in its first attempt than 3 others, so they know what they can improve upon (even if it is a prescriptive tick-box excercise) and can improve their ranking next year. The Doran's have done a cracking job at Lydden and hopefully will continue to do so, but when you compare the paddock to some of the places the ERC visits, there is plenty of room for improvement.

Do we know which countries were below Lydden/on the fringes?

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by mivec

This should be: 10 best venues from 10 different country's. Some country's have 2 or more good tracks.

Yep, but the current rules (10 ERC rounds in 10 different countries) has fixed this anyway.

@ Hickey:
1 Sweden
2 Hungary
3 Belgium
4 Germany
5 France
6 Poland
7 Great Britain
8 Czech Republic
9 Portugal
10 Austria

[The Eye]

The stewards ranked England as No 2 together with Belgium. The drivers also ranked Lydden as No 2.

[Derek Tohill]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

Yep, but the current rules (10 ERC rounds in 10 different countries) has fixed this anyway.

@ Hickey:
1 Sweden
2 Hungary
3 Belgium
4 Germany
5 France
6 Poland
7 Great Britain
8 Czech Republic
9 Portugal
10 Austria

I reckon the rankings are fairly accurate, the only venue I would disagree with is Montalegre in Portugal, I think Lousada in Portugal is a nicer venue with one of the best atmospheres I have ever experienced at an ERC event Apart of course from the atmosphere at Mondello Park in the 80's!