Safety of cars

Crash and Burn · 2 Sep 2001, 15:24 (Ref:140123)

After Burti's crash.. It goes to show how strong the cars of today are.

But - do we need to make the tracks safer as the tyre wall just exploded around him, which knocked him out.... If he had been a couple of metres short the tyre wall was only 2 tyres thick.

Do the FIA need to changed the saftey around the tracks even more????
What do you think...............

Ralf's Girl · 2 Sep 2001, 15:39 (Ref:140136)

It was amazing how well the nosecone of Burti's car stood up to that crash.

And just out of curiosity...to all those (e.g. BBKing) who accused Ralf of being a wimp for saying that Spa was dangerous. Is he still a wimp? After what you saw today, can you say his concerns were unjustified?

The problem today was that no matter how big that gravel trap was, it couldn't have slowed Burti's car down. It's a well-known fact that gravel traps don't slow cars down when they are going at 160mph in a straight line. They need to find an alternative, which can slow drivers down when they are still moving in a straight line.

D428 CHO · 2 Sep 2001, 15:40 (Ref:140139)

The fact that the front of the car was so intact indicates that the tyre wall must have absorbed almost all the energy from the 180mph impact, if it hadn't done Burti would have done so instead! These incidents are rare, and anything that can absorb that sort of impact so well has been a resounding success in my opinion. Perhaps the tyres could have been bound together better, but it's the usual argument with safety of where do you stop. If you're going to drive competitively around a circuit at 200+ mph then risk does come into the equation and has to be accepted.

Crash and Burn · 2 Sep 2001, 15:42 (Ref:140141)

Quote:

Originally posted by D428 CHO
The fact that the front of the car was so intact indicates that the tyre wall must have absorbed almost all the energy from the 180mph impact, if it hadn't done Burti would have done so instead! These incidents are rare, and anything that can absorb that sort of impact so well has been a resounding success in my opinion. Perhaps the tyres could have been bound together better, but it's the usual argument with safety of where do you stop. If you're going to drive competitively around a circuit at 200+ mph then risk does come into the equation and has to be accepted.

Good point - but my question is that he only just made it to the point of the full wall of tyres - what would of happened if he had gone on for a bit further?

neutral · 2 Sep 2001, 15:53 (Ref:140152)

add more tyres, increase the run off areas but dont dare change the track. This incident could happen at a number of places and there is no need to demolish what is one of the last great tracks.

paulzinho · 2 Sep 2001, 16:22 (Ref:140180)

As Murray said...

"Motor racing will never be safe. It is a dangerous sport. It can be made safer but never 100% safe"

**Bononi** · 2 Sep 2001, 17:10 (Ref:140208)

Quote:

Originally posted by neutral
add more tyres, increase the run off areas but dont dare change the track. This incident could happen at a number of places and there is no need to demolish what is one of the last great tracks.

Precisely.

The tyre wall did the job, and as R Girl said there's no way to slow down a car in the gravel trap running in a straight line. Even if adding more tyres, the crash would be the same... I guess for now there's nothing to do, at least until new technologies have been developed.

**touringlegend** · 2 Sep 2001, 19:35 (Ref:140260)

From the overhead shots, which i thought were innapropriate, after Burti had crashed, I though the tyres took all the impact, as the metal/concret wall behind it seeme to be straight enough.
Thank god he's OK. I was really upset when I saw that happening, and teh constant replays just were OTT.

Ralf's Girl · 2 Sep 2001, 20:18 (Ref:140280)

It's a true testimony to the strength of modern F1 cars that Burti walked away from that crash. It all stems back to the Senna accident in 94, and my dad summed it up quite well this evening:

"Ayrton's saved a few lives since 1994"

This, of course, is true - if it hadn't been for that, the FIA wouldn't have made all the changes that have prevented Burti today, and Villeneuve, Zonta, Salo and others before him from being killed.

Sodemo · 2 Sep 2001, 20:29 (Ref:140287)

I think the safety of the Spa circuit is fine, OK its not as safe as say the A1 Ring, but if you remove all the danger, the circuit has no character. I'm from the school of thinking that likes a bit of danger in motorsport, one the reason's I like Karting is because of the danger aspect, (I have no death-wish) but I like cheating death.

Yes make tyre walls thicker, increase run-off, but don't change the track.

Why don't they just dump a load of gravel (ie about 1 metre deep) around the track, so if a driver goes off, its like a snow-plough effect?

PS I actually thought Burti was dead.

**touringlegend** · 2 Sep 2001, 20:30 (Ref:140288)

Back at the start of F1(50's&60's) wasn't it common to lose a few driver a year? Nowadays, I don't think it's possible to die, which of course is a good thing.

Sodemo · 2 Sep 2001, 20:34 (Ref:140290)

Well in these cars, I think at current speeds, you could go off almost anywhere and you'd survive the crash.

People go on and on about how safety has improved, OK from 94 - onwards it has, but the last few years hasn't changed much in the cars.

PS I have the 93' review vid, and when Derek Warwick crashed at Hockenhiem, the commentator (J Ross) says something like "this is a demonstration of how todays cars are so safe" etc.
Then Imola 94' happened!

DNQ · 2 Sep 2001, 20:36 (Ref:140292)

Wow, big accident, glad he is OK. I was really worried when that happened, and when the sheet went up so the camera's couldn't see him.

You don't have a small crash at that speed, and I am just thankful he is not seriously hurt...

**Bononi** · 2 Sep 2001, 20:40 (Ref:140294)

Quote:

Nowadays, I don't think it's possible to die, which of course is a good thing.

I wish your sentence could be an undisputed truth. But it's not, in fact, it's a very possible situation. Just add some variations in what happened to Burti, and you have a fatal crash.

BTW, those tyres are filled with water ?

francis · 2 Sep 2001, 20:58 (Ref:140305)

Bononi

I think they're only filled with water from rainfall. There are loads of ifs and ifs and buts. The chances are that tehre will never be an accident of that same circumstance in F1 at that corner in the next 10 years - it's just not an overtaking place. Doesn't mean the FIA shouldn't examine it but they can't possibly cover EVERY eventuality

economy_waffle · 2 Sep 2001, 21:22 (Ref:140314)

Quote:

Originally posted by paulzinho
As Murray said...

"Motor racing will never be safe. It is a dangerous sport. It can be made safer but never 100% safe"

exactly...

economy_waffle · 2 Sep 2001, 21:26 (Ref:140315)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sodemo
People go on and on about how safety has improved, OK from 94 - onwards it has, but the last few years hasn't changed much in the cars.

sorry to double post, but in 1999 the cars were so blatently weaker than today's cars, also this year the 'G' force inpact tp the sidepods was increased from 6G to 10G!!! significant!!!

**Bononi** · 2 Sep 2001, 23:36 (Ref:140361)

Still Sodemo showed the reality.

In years to come, we will see this crash and others like a non-sense.

That's life. (Am I looking like Frank Sinatra ?)

Ian-S · 3 Sep 2001, 00:17 (Ref:140376)

Sometimes in the States they have a row of tyre wall about 10 foot in front of the wall lined tyre wall, but then you get into a situation where that's good for an accident of this kind, but no good if the car is having a bit of air time.

Also they could go back to Catch Fencing, but then that killed a few people in it's time too, I'm sure if they looked into it properly, they could come up with a suitable system, but they won't until someone get's killed.

A Religious person would say that in the last few months there have been some big warnings sent from "Him Upstairs", but do you think they will take any notice?

mac · 3 Sep 2001, 06:03 (Ref:140456)

Just a thought - I've seen a few people bagging the fact that the tyres "exploded" and flew everywhere. Is there a possibility that this played a role in saving (or decreasing injury for) Luciano?

Remember when Panis crashed at Montreal? The tyres were all bound together, thus forming an immovable wall. Olivier didn't even hit the wall that hard, and his leg was smashed.

If you were asked if you would prefer to hit a wall that will not move with the car at all, or hit a wall that was moving in the same direction as the car, thus absorbing some of the impact - which would you prefer?

**Bononi** · 3 Sep 2001, 13:44 (Ref:140612)

Quote:

Originally posted by mac
Just a thought - I've seen a few people bagging the fact that the tyres "exploded" and flew everywhere. Is there a possibility that this played a role in saving (or decreasing injury for) Luciano?

Remember when Panis crashed at Montreal? The tyres were all bound together, thus forming an immovable wall. Olivier didn't even hit the wall that hard, and his leg was smashed.

If you were asked if you would prefer to hit a wall that will not move with the car at all, or hit a wall that was moving in the same direction as the car, thus absorbing some of the impact - which would you prefer?

In my opinion, YES it was what saved him. The tyres spreading around recuced the impact and didn't bounce back the car, preventing it to spin again or turn upside down who knows where...

Hans.ca · 3 Sep 2001, 16:22 (Ref:140660)

Replace gravel traps with pavement, real grippy asphalt, so that the driver has a chance to use his brakes. Another suggestion would be to replace the gravel traps with pools, about 1/2 meter deep, if the car would sink even just a few cm it would slow them down. Not sure if this would be possible, perhaps the car would just slide over the top of the water. I know they can run snowmobiles over open water for quit a long distance.

Vandas · 3 Sep 2001, 17:00 (Ref:140671)

As I was an official at Turn three in Melbourne this year I can testify to how safe these F1 cars are. I have never seen anything like what happened to the BAR vehicle.

When I saw Burti's crash I got my Dad out of bed (he is the Assistant Clerk of Course at the Australian F1 GP), and we were both watching the officials for any signs. He said that it was a good sign with the speed in which they got him into the ambulance. If it had have been longer it meant they were trying to do as much at the scene as possible.

In Melbourne we run conveyor belts across the front of our tyre barriers to ensure that cars don't plough through them. I believe they also use these at tracks worldwide, and I am assuming they will also put them at the place where Burti crashed.

I saw a similar accident to this recently in a CART event, where a the throttle stuck in one car, and he raced over the gravel trap and smashed into and drove right through a tyre barrier. The car ended up driving right through the tyre barrier and eventually ended up on top of the wall. I guess the spreading of the tyres helped absorb a lot more shock and helped the driver get out unscathed.

Let me know your thoughts.

paulzinho · 3 Sep 2001, 19:50 (Ref:140748)

The tyres spreading helped to absorb the impact but the danger was the way they came back into the cockpit. This may need to be looked at. But don't change the track.

economy_waffle · 3 Sep 2001, 19:58 (Ref:140755)

Quote:

Originally posted by Ralf's Girl
The problem today was that no matter how big that gravel trap was, it couldn't have slowed Burti's car down. It's a well-known fact that gravel traps don't slow cars down when they are going at 160mph in a straight line. They need to find an alternative, which can slow drivers down when they are still moving in a straight line.

sand? mud? put it like this: accidents happen, motorsport aint 100% safe - it never will be so basically make the cars safer, and then dont get complacent like in 94'.

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