To Everyone

[WogBoy]

I notice there is so much negativity about Michael Schumacher. I will not lie I am a very huge Michael Schumacher fan. Honestly guys and girls snap out of it and admit that schui is one of the best drivers EVER in f1. If his drive in Japan doesn't prove it to you guys then nothing will. I only hope that all you people that bag him have read James Allen's book on him and then come on this forum and say that he is over-rated. If only he never done what he did in Jerez then his career would be looked on with so much more positivity. As for the people that that criticise him for what he does at the starts of a GP. Look at this years Japanese GP, look at the second row of the start and look at who cuts across Rubens......and if that driver has the nerve to criticise schui then he should really have a black coffee with no sugar and snap out of the fantasy land he is in. I am not trying to start up an arguement but after learning just 5% of the inside of F1 I think that people should just face reallity and admit that Michael Schumacher is one of those rare talents that come into F1 racing once in a decade.

[downforce]

Keep wogging Wogboy!!
Nobody on this board thinks hes overated...they jus go for the underdogs...
Welkom aboard anyway...

[Bononi]

I think you mean TGF... what's wrong talking about him ? The fun in F1 is around him, so how can we left him alone ?
Someday another will come around and then we'll forget him.
By now, he's the current world champion and the all the words goes for him, good or bad.

[Ralf's Girl]

WogBoy - I don't like TGF, it's simple. However, I have no problem acknowledging the fact that he is the greatest driver of his era and one of the greatest ever. I know he's good, but he's controversial. A lot of people on this board don't agree with the things he says or does. Which is why he isn't a particularly popular man for some members.

[LYM]

No big fan of TGF, but I gotta admit that he's the best of the current generation.

Why is he so controversial?
1.) The coincidence of crashing into his bitterest rivals twice in 3 years.
2.) Schumacher claimed that the newspapers in UK have always biased against the British Teams and critisized him unfairly. I dunno know how true was that. But aren't most of the anti-schumis here British?
3.) The appaling attitude of a minority group of TGF's fans. Shallow, cocky, arrogant, inconsiderate...causing total discomfort among the neutrals and other teams' supporters.

Those are my personal unproven opinions, remember that.

[Tris]

Personally I like Schumacher in the car... who would not, he is a racer pure and simple. Out of the I have little time for his phcycological tricks, the way he plays down how good his cars are (I remember in 97 when he drover the Sauber and proclaimed it to be a better car than his F310B.)

I have a saying... “The trouble with Michael Schumacher is that he thinks he is Ayrton Senna.” It was this attitude along with the cheating allegations in 1994 that destroyed his image.

Also some of his more extreme fans are intolerable idiots who just proclaim his greatness over Senna which gets up a lot of peoples noses. The ultimate watershed will be when people stop describing up and coming drivers as “The next Senna” and start calling them “the next Schumacher.” I for one do not see this happening. Having said that I put MS in my top 10 all time drivers.

[Danielsun]

"Wog Boy! Wog Boy!" Ahhh... Wasn't that a wonderful movie?

Yes, I dislike Schumacher as well, but it's more for his attitude than his driving. It's hard not to like his driving talents, but he does have a tendancy to crack under pressure, witness Adelaide '94 and Jerez '97. And then he goes off and accuses other drivers (like his best friend DC) of trying to kill him.

If it weren't for his policeman attitude (Do as I say, not as I do), I'm sure I'd still like him, as I did before he won the World Championship for the first time...

[Liz]

As a pilot he's the best of a currently very weak field. He is not, however, equal to or greater than at least a dozen pilots of the seventies, eighties and early nineties, (In My Opinion).

But he is the best of what we have available now, until Juan Pablo gets into his stride! And then will TGF be gracious as he is eclipsed, or will he step up the accusations, the complaints and the dangerous driving? Time will tell.

[Bononi]

Time will tell...

Would TGF retire like the Professor ? Or maybe he will take part of the staff of Ferrari ? Or would he will be blessed (or damned) to die in the speed, and just like Gilles, Senna and Rindt enter directly in the phanteon of the speed gods ??
Or maybe he will run for Prime Minister of Germany, and handle a new career as a politician ?????

Gosh, my vote goes for the last one....

Hey Liz, wouldn't be a nice topic ?

[Liz]

Would that not make the former Prime Minister of Italy very happy, to have TGF the head of the German government? Why not? He's young enough and he has the finances and the name recognition to do it.

Wouldn't it be terrifying to have Juan Pablo and TGF on the same team?

[EERO]

On the subject of Herr Schumacher: no, I am not a fan. I find him arrogant and petulant.
He is, however, the best driver in F1 right now. I would agree with Liz that many drivers from earlier eras were more talented. Schumacher will need to surpass Fangio's 5 WDC's, Prost's 51 victories and Senna's 65 poles to be considered "great"

Bear in mind that he has raced exclusivily in an era of 16-17 races per season. In prior eras, seasons were 6-8 races and driver's tenures were brutally short.

[Murph]

The late Dennis Jenkinson wrote that a Grand Prix driver who won above 10 % of his Grand Prix races over his career ( no one or two race wonders now..) he should be considered a "first-rank" driver...... well...... I have been heavily influenced during my turbulent youth by "Jenks".... and I do believe that Schumacher has a win % of over 20%. Also, as one who has gone to f1 races since the very early 70's (The 1972 season had 12 races.... the # of races per season started to increase after that) and seen the stars of the '70's, '80's, & '90's in the flesh..... in my opinion he ranks up there with the greats of the past 30 years... not top 5... but definitely top 10.

take care, all

Murph


'opps....... if I adhere to "Jenks" 10% = greatness theory.... how do I explain Damon Hill ??? Oh, God.... I knew I should have listened to the announcement at Woodstock warning us NOT TO TAKE THE BROWN ACID !!!!!

[CATMAN]

Said it before and I`ll say it again. Good drivers do not need to resort to the tactics and intimidation used by MS.
And a good driver would accept that at times debatable moves would be made on himself. MS is a product of F1 need not a great driver!

[Carla O]

Originally posted by EERO
On the subject of Herr Schumacher: no, I am not a fan. I find him arrogant and petulant.
He is, however, the best driver in F1 right now.

i have to agree... when will the others get better than him? soooooon i hope!

[WogBoy]

Honestly please everyone, I am not saying Schui and Senna are equal BUT there was a certain driver in a benetton that was a heap of **** in 92-93 that was up Senna's ass for most of the 2 seasons, a youngster to I might add against a seasoned professional. But like I said before read James Allen's book on Michael and then I woould like to hear you guys criticise him.

[Nuvolari]

I can see it now, the low murmur of reporters filling an ornate room at government headquarters in Berlin . . .

"Herr Schumacher, since this is your first news conference, I thought we might, as it were, give you a 'brake.'"

"Bitte . . . I don't mean to cut you off, but I want to reassure the people of Germany I don't intend to spin my wheels. As you know, we have been dicing with a recession for years. No longer, if we accept that it is a prudent mix of personal spending and government policies which will drive the recovery. We have the fuel, and we will not tire. Despite a past that some might call checkered, I plan to take the lead . . . with the help of my team and my talented Number Two. We can -- we must -- return Deutschland to the top step of Europe's podium! Danke schoen!"

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Murph
'opps....... if I adhere to "Jenks" 10% = greatness theory.... how do I explain Damon Hill ??? Oh, God.... I knew I should have listened to the announcement at Woodstock warning us NOT TO TAKE THE BROWN ACID !!!!!

I have to ask this Murph. What was wrong with Damon Hill? As you say, he did everything your guru needed to qualify. He also proved a good solid racer. Albeit he got "sensible" at the end and maybe should have retired a season earlier. However, his father was the same. Conventional reports never rated Graham highly, due to the likes of Clark, Surtees etc. being around at the same time. However he won two WDC's didn't he? And he won at Monaco five times?

Damon was of a similar stamp so I for one would take issue with the position that he was just a makeweight. He also dragged Williams out of the mire after the trgedies of Imola '94.

On the subject of Mickey-the-shoe. I agree with you. Top 10 but not top five.

[chow wei hsien]

lots of you guys out there can be lawyers and fight it out in court!

for one moment, everyone starts saying that you can compare two drivers unless you put them into the same car, then you can tell who is the better driver.... (when everybody start referring to comparison between Mika and Michael)

then right now, so many people can convincingly say that michael is not the top 5 best of all time but top 10 best of all time.....just not too long ago everyone say you can't compare unless they are in same car and team,

BUT now, you guys are comparing Michael with drivers of 20 or 30 years ago and say that they are better than Schumi!!
its RIDICULOUS , the F1 cars of today and 30 years ago couldn't be more different.


lots of the anti-schumi have no firm stance on certain things, they ust follow the direction of the "wind" in the forum. Sometimes i doubt the things said.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by chow wei hsien
lots of you guys out there can be lawyers and fight it out in court!

for one moment, everyone starts saying that you can compare two drivers unless you put them into the same car, then you can tell who is the better driver.... (when everybody start referring to comparison between Mika and Michael)

then right now, so many people can convincingly say that michael is not the top 5 best of all time but top 10 best of all time.....just not too long ago everyone say you can't compare unless they are in same car and team,

BUT now, you guys are comparing Michael with drivers of 20 or 30 years ago and say that they are better than Schumi!!
its RIDICULOUS , the F1 cars of today and 30 years ago couldn't be more different.


lots of the anti-schumi have no firm stance on certain things, they ust follow the direction of the "wind" in the forum. Sometimes i doubt the things said.

You are entitled to your opinion but I don't think I've ever changed my stance. I've always said he's good but not that good. So what's your problem?

[TimD]

Another point about Damon - perhaps more than most others on the grid today, he has proved himself to be a versatile driver. Not just a proven winner in F1, but also a very quick racing motorcyclist, and prepared to have a go in racing cars of other eras too. It could be said that his F3000 year, while at best middling-to-okay, proved that single seaters might not even be the best showcase for him.

Michael Schumacher is one of the very few others whose talents can be measured in another class of racing. He has had experience in the Mercedes group-C sports cars, and a limited amount of DTM running in a Merc 190. Indeed, it was in the Mercedes WSC car that he first looked like being a bit special.

I'm quite happy to state that I like to see Schumacher do well. He is the most consistently quick of the current class. I don't really understand the antipathy he generates off the track, although I suppose that as I tend to filter out PR-speak from drivers AND teams, I tend not to notice the mind-games that people play. He seems a personable enough chap away from the circuits.

Top ten of all time? Probably. He's not a Fangio, or a Moss. Certainly not a Nuvolari, and the title "rainmaster" for me will always mean Caracciola. Only posterity will truly record Michael's standing. Let's take another look in twenty years time, and see how his record stands up. And we'll be able to compare him with the whizzkids of 2021, who in all likelihood are not yet born to this world.

Oh, on the subject of the biography - I have never found reading a current driver's life story terribly satisfying. There's always a feeling of unfinished business about it. Again, I'll wait for a bit, for when Schumacher hangs up his helmet and then really tells it how it was. That will be a book I shall read.

[Neil C]

Interesting phenomenon.

Schumacher is to F1 what abortion is to politics.

Just mention the subject and everyone chooses sides and accuses the other side of being conceived at the shallow end of the gene pool.

What irritates me about some of the Schumistas is their two dimensional perspective of F1. There's Schumacher, then there's everything else...and everything else is not worth discussing.

You know who you are.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Neil C
What irritates me about some of the Schumistas is their two dimensional perspective of F1. There's Schumacher, then there's everything else...and everything else is not worth discussing.

Yep, I get the same impression.

[TimD]

Originally posted by chow wei hsien
, the F1 cars of today and 30 years ago couldn't be more different.

Interesting point. I know I keep on about this - but any driver who wants to show themselves to be an all-round talent only has to sign up to do a bit of competition in a classic race car.

The cars are a very good yardstick, and while it is an unattainable dream to imagine - say - Jim Clark taking the wheel of a McLaren Merc, it would be very easy to give Mika Hakkinen a Lotus-Ford and see what he does with it.

I found it very telling that Autosport did a feature on Michael Schumacher testing an eighties F1 Ferrari. A Michele Alboreto car, if I remember rightly. In the article, his first, and overriding impression of it was that the lack of current safety features unnerved him.

Interesting, I thought...

[Murph]

Peter

Yes….. Damon Hill is a great bloke. Yes…..Damon Hill was THE ROCK that brought Team Williams out of the despair of Imola ’94. Yes…..Damon Hill was a “good solid racer”. I will add that he was an exceptional test driver in 1992. But…….. my point is that I see that “Jenks” 10% rule = greatness…. is flawed. Damon a good solid driver….again I agree…..Damon as a great driver…no. Unfortunately for Damon….. Frank & Patrick didn’t see him in that light either. I have to go to work now Peter… so I thought I’d cut-n-paste part of an article I wrote for another web site a year or so ago. The article dealt with the “Williams philosophy” (before the articles on Ferrari’s and McLaren’s philosophies were finished…. I done got fired!….’sigh) The reason I am including it is…. “somewhere in there” is my take on why Damon was let go from Williams.


“The Williams philosophy can be summed up in three statements….

1. The Manufacturers Championship is the most important because it proves that you have the best cars in F1
2. 2. That if you make the best cars, you do not need the best drivers. In the current High-tech world of F1…… "Newey beats Schuey"
3. 3. Treat your drivers the same. The reason is simple, with superior machinery the team does not have to put all of their "eggs in one basket".

Like all teams, the Williams philosophy has been constantly evolving. To better understand where you are now and where you are headed…. you have to remember where you came from. Many fans of F1 see Frank Williams as a very stubborn man who is pretty cold to his drivers. In most teams the drivers are the stars but to Frank and Patrick they are just employees. To better understand Williams today, let us take a very brief look at it’s past.

Frank had a lot of "false" starts in tying to get established in F1. I can remember watching the Politoy Marches of Carlos Pace & Henri Pescarolo at Mosport in 1972. Then there was the Iso Marlboro with Jackie Ickx and the doomed jointure with Walter Wolf. Frank finally decides that from now on he will do it his way. Frank and Patrick Head finally broke through with the Ford powered FW 06 in 1979. The Saudi Williams of 1978-1981 fame was based on what we Americans call the "KISS" philosophy….. Keep It Simple Stupid. But there were a number of "lessons" that had to be learned.

Lesson #1. Beware of drivers with their own agenda.
The pairing of Alan Jones with Carlos Reutemann was a match made in Hades. Carlos will split the team when he disregards team orders to let Jones pass. From this point on, Frank will remind his drivers that they are HIS employee.

Lesson #2. You cannot depend on those things you have no control over.
Honda taught this lesson. Honda backed Nelson Piquet as the teams #1 driver with Nigel Mansell as the #2. The only problem with that was that Mansell out drove Piquet for most of the 3 seasons they were together. Little things like tires exploding and wheels falling off cost Nigel a chance at a possible 2 World Championships. Even though Piquet won the drivers championship in ’87, Honda was not amused.
The combination of Franks road accident and the fact that Nelson did not get preferential treatment within the team upset Honda enough that they broke their contract with Williams (even though it had one more year to run). They took their Honda engines (and brought in Ayrton Senna to boot) to McLaren. The moral of the story : get and maintain an exclusive relationship with your engine manufacturer.

Lesson #3. If your car is not the best… then Drivers Do Matter !
This lesson was taught by the return of Nigel from Ferrari. Mansell was a major improvement over the Boutsen/ Patrese tandem.

So going into the 90’s…. Williams had a good report with Renault, great chassis, ingenuity (Adrian Newey), and very good driver tandems of Mansell &Patrese, Prost & Hill, and Senna & Hill.
The loss of Ayrton though, brought Williams to a crossroads…. Do they bring back Mansell as THE #1 driver backed by Hill.. …or do they believe that Hill & Coulthard are good enough to drive the best car in F1 to championships. With the continuation of the Hill/Coulthard team, the current Williams philosophy is set….Best Engine, Best Chassis, innovation, and good solid drivers to bring in the championships. But 1995 sees the Benetton/Schumacher combo crush all in its path. Schumacher himself almost scores as many points as Damon & DC combined. To make matters worse, Williams has lost the exclusive use of the Renault engine and must now share with Benetton. There is some good news, Schumacher leaves for Ferrari to take on the challenge of resurrecting that team into returning as a championship contender.. This gives Williams the opportunity to "buy time" in preparing for the future while winning championships in the present. The specter of a revitalized Ferrari with Schumacher in equal machinery cause Frank and Patrick to look for an "antidote". Against Schumacher.. drivers DO matter, again. Coulthard and Hill are found wanting…but Jacques Villenueve IS THE ANSWER in ’97.” ……
I go onto a look at Williams future at this point……..and has no bearing on Damon & his abilities…..

Peter….. if I was looking for a great guy to spend a couple of days out and about drinking some Murphy’s Stout & flyfishing …. Believe me I’d pick “Our Damon” over “Mickey-the Schu” in a heart beat……..

Also Peter….. I don’t think I have a problem……but since I’m irritating (like a bad rash)… I’ll go away.

Neil…… sooooo bottom end of the gene pool am I….….hmmmmm…… if I keep eating the way I have been lately…. I won’t fit into them either! Well…. I’m gone…. Got to work on expanding my two-dimensional perspective of F1.

take care all……

Murph

[KC]

There is no doubt that MS is gifted and possesses great talent. However, as a person I think he lacks mightily. I do not expect him to be the male version of Mother Theresa, but demanding that your teammate be subservient I think lacks courage to face stiff competition and an certain amount of insecurity.

The fact that he was allowed to use Johnny Herbert's test data, setups and telemetry while there was no reciprocation allowed shows that MS needed JH's setup work to do his job. If he is the vaunted wunderkind, why would he feel the need to hold back a guy who still suffers greatly from his serious race injuries? His situation at Ferrari continues the tradition of propping himself up with the work of this teammate. Wasn't it amazing that Eddie Irvine was nearly uncatchable while MS was sidelined with injury and that as soon as he came back EI was running 5th again?

The man definitely has the pure skill and talent but is not much of a racer. I think he would have been much less successful against drivers like Jimmy Clark, Niki lauda, and Gille villeneuve had he been in the eras.