A question of laps

[bathurst77]

A hypothetical brain teaser.

In a long distance race the 1st place car laps every other car in the field.
(A la Brock 78)
HE does 99 circuits, crosses the line 99 times, so we are on lap 100.
the 2nd place car is umm ..3 laps behind..

Then something happens and the leaders car dies after 100 laps.
The next car has only done 96 laps.

What lap number are we on?
IF the race was 120 laps, how many laps to go?

IF ther was a rune about pit stops "the pit lane closes or opens on lap 100" what happens now, it was lap 101 , its now lap 97.

[RotorFan]

The lead car is still in the race of course, dead or not. So its in the lead for 3 more laps.

[Skippy1976]

well the pit lane thing is easy.... the pitlane opening and closing window is based on each individual cars completed laps, so in your scenario the leader could be on lap 113 and a car coming 2nd last on lap 88 is still able to make its CPS

The race is lead lap stays on 100 until the car on 96 laps assuming its still in 2nd place does 4 more laps to catch up and then "overtakes" the broken down car then next time across the finish line the lead lap is 101

[RotorFan]

I'm pretty sure the pit lane opening rules are based on the race laps, not individual cars.

bathurst77's scenario would be interesting if the lead car was straight out disqualified from the race (maybe ignoring black flags).

Off topic, but I've always wondered what the rules are about passing under full-course yellow. Obviously you aren't meant to but what about cars coming out of the pits (like in the A1GP, as far as I could tell mexico was technically passed by france under safety car conditions). And stricken cars that are dragging the chain under safety car.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

A hypothetical brain teaser.

In a long distance race the 1st place car laps every other car in the field.
(A la Brock 78)
HE does 99 circuits, crosses the line 99 times, so we are on lap 100.
the 2nd place car is umm ..3 laps behind..

Then something happens and the leaders car dies after 100 laps.
The next car has only done 96 laps.

What lap number are we on?
IF the race was 120 laps, how many laps to go?

IF ther was a rune about pit stops "the pit lane closes or opens on lap 100" what happens now, it was lap 101 , its now lap 97.

It is easy, if the lead car retires dead, then the lap count goes to the next car, which in your example is on lap 96, so if the race is 120 laps, then there is still 24 laps to go. I have been a starter at Winton quite a few times, and this example happens all the time in smaller events, so it is no big deal.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

Off topic, but I've always wondered what the rules are about passing under full-course yellow. Obviously you aren't meant to but what about cars coming out of the pits (like in the A1GP, as far as I could tell mexico was technically passed by france under safety car conditions). And stricken cars that are dragging the chain under safety car.

If a car passes another car under a yellow flag, then normally a drive-thru or time penality is given. Technically you are not supposed to pass "any" car under yellow, unless directed by the safety car or via the starter who are both following instructions of the Clerk of Course. PVDA will clarify this when he logs in, but I am sure I am right.

[storyline]

Trev - sorry - wrong. The lap count does NOT go backwards - it stays on the original leaders lap count until the next placed car has completed the same number of laps - so in your example it would NOT be a 124 lap race for the simple reason that the guy on 96 laps did NOT have to race 124 laps but only 120 laps.

If the lead car dies, crashes out - whatever - the lap count STAYS on lap 99 until the next placed car passes that cars lap count. The reasoning for this is in case a red flag is called and the race count is taken BACKWARDS to the lap required under NCR 161. A good example of this from Bathurst is the Jim Richards Godzilla crash.

Using another example was an AIR NASCAR race some years ago - Jim Richards was in first in a 100 lap race, Kim Jane in 2nd also on lap 99. Going into turn 1 on the last lap Kim tried to pass taking out both himself and Jim. Third place car - although on lap 99 - came through and took the chequered flag to win the race with 100 laps. When results were published Jim and Kim were given their respective placings on 99 completed laps.

As to the pit lane closing - there is currently an argument going on within CAMS about the business of closing pit lane when the winner takes the chequered flag. Under the NCR's (which no series regulations can change) they state that to be classified as a finisher the car must complete the race, under its own power, within 3 minutes (for tracks under 3.0 km in length) or 6 minutes (for tracks over 3.0 km in length). Whilst it hasn't yet happened, because of the V8 Supercar rules which state a car must FINISH a race to be classified, by closing pit lane BEFORE the expiration of the 3 or 6 minute time-out period, it is possible a car can be denied a finish because of an unenforceable rule about closing pit lane. So far, no one in CAMS has had the courage to rule on this and my guess is that it will take someone like Larry Perkins to take it to court to have it clarified.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

If a car passes another car under a yellow flag, then normally a drive-thru or time penality is given. Technically you are not supposed to pass "any" car under yellow, unless directed by the safety car or via the starter who are both following instructions of the Clerk of Course. PVDA will clarify this when he logs in, but I am sure I am right.

F1 and V8 have different rules.

Under V8 the pit lane exit is closed when the safety car approaches pit lane - so this scenario can't happen (a car coming out of pit lane as the safety car approaches.

F1 however is different, provided the car exits pit lane BEFORE the safety car is abreast of him, he can exit and move around the track to get on the tail end of the field - which IMHO negates the use of a safety car anyway because the car exiting pit lane will go at full speed until he reaches the end of the train.

NASCAR rules are similar - provided the safety car is NOT directly opposite your pit, you can exit pit lane AND stay ahead of it. If, however, the safety car has crossed across from the cars pit bay, you CANNOT exit pit lane until the train has passed.

All similar but slightly different rules.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

PVDA will clarify this when he logs in

Seeing I was asked I'd better say something

Only when directed by the driver or passenger in the Safety Car (who are told by Race Control) can a car or cars pass the Safety Car remembering the Safety Car can be deployed immediately and not have to wait to pick up the leader. Then what happens if the leader pits befor being picked up by the SC? The next car on the track becomes the lead (not leading) car behind the SC, remember Bathurst a few years ago when Cromly & others argued wrongly because the lead car pitted but the officials got it right on that occasion.

Cars aren't permitted to overtake each other when under SC control BUT the obvious exceptions would be if a car spun off under SC or a car caught another vehicle that was in trouble and running very slow but the driver doing the passing has to make sure the marshals are happy or he could get pinged.

As for the original question: If the leader stopped at 99 laps then the lap counter stops with him until 2nd places catches and passes him by completing more laps. Of course if you throw a Red Flag into the argument and the leader could be declared the winner on the result of leading the previous lap unless the Sup Reg's are written to exclude cars not moving at the time the flag is thrown.

Compulsary Pit Stops use the leaders lap count. Wasn't it Gary Rogers who got caught out a few years ago (Clipsal??) trying to argue his car was 3 or 4 laps down so wasn't due to stop yet.

Another interesting rule I found out the other day, CAMS requires a car to complete 75% of the race distance to be classified a finisher (Skaife made it with 1 lap to spare at Winton in '04 after getting bogged) but under AASA the car only has to start, pull over in pit lane and then complete the last lap to be classified a finisher as one BMW driver did at the recent VMRC round at Calder who was having brake problems but wanted the series points for the last place which could be handy later in the series.

[storyline]

Add to the 75% rule - under V8SA V8 rules there is a designated time the lap time of the final lap has to be completed in - can't recall what it is off hand but this has caused the NC of a number of competitors over the last few years.

The Supp Reg's couldn't include a section to exclude cars not moving at a red flag as this would contravene or change an NCR. In almost all instances of a red flag, you will usually find that if it is the race leader that has gone off causing the red flag, then they will STILL be shown as the race winner once the laps are adjusted - unless, of course, the race director has been slow in making a decision (Schenken has been guilty of this on more than one occasion).

Bikes, OTOH, have a section in their NCR's (forgot their actual name) that excludes the rider that caused a red flag from re-starting in any re-started race. Sometimes - it has been debated - this rule should also apply to cars.

Paul - much as I stick up for AASA at times - that rule (the one you described comparing the 75% rule) makes racing under those rules an absolute joke.

[racer69]

One thing that's always bothered me concerns timed races, for example the 2003 Bathurst 24 Hours.

When the call went out so the two Monaro's could race in the last 7 minutes, the #05 and #427 cars were 12 laps clear of the #54 Porsche. The commentators mention that if the two leaders tangled, the Porsche would win.

Car #54 had no chance of closing the 12 lap gap in the time remaining, the two leaders would have completed more laps in the timed distance than anyone else if they had come together, or do you have to cross the finish line to be classified, no matter if you've done the most laps or not?

[retro]

In the Legends racing the other night one of the racers was breaking down at the end of the race so he stopped a few feet from the finish line and waited for the lead car to finish and then pushed his car over the line to get a finish and a place.(was at Bathurst)

[storyline]

Originally Posted by racer69

One thing that's always bothered me concerns timed races, for example the 2003 Bathurst 24 Hours.

When the call went out so the two Monaro's could race in the last 7 minutes, the #05 and #427 cars were 12 laps clear of the #54 Porsche. The commentators mention that if the two leaders tangled, the Porsche would win.

Car #54 had no chance of closing the 12 lap gap in the time remaining, the two leaders would have completed more laps in the timed distance than anyone else if they had come together, or do you have to cross the finish line to be classified, no matter if you've done the most laps or not?

It depends entirely on how the regs for the event are written.

If they include the normal NCR 116 rule - you have to cross the finish line under the cars own power to be classified as a finisher (remember Bathusrt where the driver pushed his over the finish line - everyone cheered until they realised he was going to be disqualified?).

However - and here's the rub - some enduros use an American style (NASCAR) result system - this is where you are classified according to the number of laps regardless of whether you were running at the finish or not.

The draft 2004 24 Hour regs said the following in relation to the finish:

4.17 RACE FINISH
4.17.1 The chequered flag signalingsignalling the end of the race will be displayed to the lead car the first time it crosses the Finish Line after the 24 hour race time has elapsed or:
4.17.1.1 If the leading car is not running on the track at the time the race is scheduled to finish, the chequered flag shall be shown to the next placed car. If the leader subsequently finishes and is credited with more laps, then it shall be placed first in the results subject to Article 4.17.3.
4.17.2 All following cars shall be classified taking the number of laps (or duration) completed and the order in which they have crossed the control line into consideration.
4.17.3 To be classified as a finisher, a car must cross the control line no later than six (6) minutes after the display of the chequered flag, regardless of the laps completed.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by storyline

If the lead car dies, crashes out - whatever - the lap count STAYS on lap 99 until the next placed car passes that cars lap count.

But even in your example they are still doing the laps.

[storyline]

Yes - they are doing the laps but at no point, unless a red flag comes out, does the lead ever revert back to the second place car. And, even under a red flag, this would ONLY happen if the second place car were within 2 laps of a race leader who crashed out and the call for the red flag was delayed (it takes some thinking about this scenario btw).

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by storyline

Add to the 75% rule - under V8SA V8 rules there is a designated time the lap time of the final lap has to be completed in - can't recall what it is off hand but this has caused the NC of a number of competitors over the last few years.

I think its no longer than 150% of the fastest lap of the race.

[rdmdog]

Some of the older V8SC rules (pit window opening etc) were based on the LEADER'S lap, dont know if this is still the case?