The IPO and STEWARDS have to GO !~ !

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I was led to believe the timesheets were updated after any change from the 'AVESCO' magic.... if they arent, then the data is certainly unreliable.

You've been led wrong. While most timers do update their timesheets on the web when penalties are applied, they are under no obligation to. In this case, they have not updated.

BTW - Steve Owen did not receive a 40 second penalty for race 1, however Alex Davison did.

[SRabbit]

Originally Posted by lcfp2297

SRabbit, again, focusing on Oran Park, where would the slow-down section be? Would it be BEFORE the current 40 line (to maintain the safety of Pit bay 32...)?

I can see where you going with this! Not enough room for a slow-down area right?
Maybe at tracks such as Oran Park they need to look at the way the pit entry has been constructed - sure the nice little dogleg on the way in is ok for the weekend warriors but for a V8Supercar its pushing the limits - look at if there is any way to change it to make it a straight-in approach - or otherwise for special circumstances such as Oran Park look at implementing a pit-in blend line the same as the pit-exit blend line. This would allow them to start the lane perhaps 30-40 metres earlier, would eliminate the close calls of cars having to swerve because they've only realised at the last minute that the car in front is pitting because they'll be in the lane - cross the blend line coming out of the hairpin and you get pinned - ok they have to exit maybe 10 - 15 km/h slower to not have the car push across the track to the wall but if someone makes an overtaking move up the inside they do this anyway

[Sequel]

Avesco used to give an undisclosed amount of leaniancy for pit lane speedimg, but they found the teams would adjust the speed limiter up a km/h at a time on the friday until they got pinged, pay the $300 fine, knock the limiter back by 1 km/h, and spend the rest of the weekend doing 43km/h. Eventially they said 40 km/h is 40 km/h, if you are worried about it, set your limiters at 39 km/h (hahahaha).

Speeding in and out of pit lane is purely the drivers problem, just like a jump start. You can take the safe way, or you can try and get every last bit out of it until you go over, and get a drive through.

Several circuits, including Wakefield and QR (I think), have several sets of timing lines it pit lane, so it accurately measures your instantainious speed at several points down pit lane, rather than an average speed for the length of pit lane.

[vatuloa]

If they wanted to make it transparent was is wrong having a large speedo like a clock linked to the Radar gun this way it will take away any possible biase. They could have one at the entrance and another at the exit large enough for every driver to see this way there would not be the dreaded call over radio.

[Falcadore]

vatuloa: Again, like the point with installing timing loops in pit lanes, and other items like repeater scoreboards, more big screens, up to date posting of results, who is going to pay for it? If you think AVESCO are then a few people are laughing right about now.

Circuits aren't going to pay for the devices just for one meeting a year. Something like that should not be burdened on the volunteer marshals, and the teams would say it's not our responsibility.

So who?

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by vatuloa

If they wanted to make it transparent was is wrong having a large speedo like a clock linked to the Radar gun this way it will take away any possible biase. They could have one at the entrance and another at the exit large enough for every driver to see this way there would not be the dreaded call over radio.

I saw this done at Wanneroo Raceway (I think they own it). It uses a portable digital speed sign like the ones Police set up on the roadside. Wouldn't be worth more than a few K and could be taken to each round with along with the speed guns.

Cheap and easy solution.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by mac

What is to stop Driver X and Driver Y coming into the pits nose-to-tail, Driver Y's stop is fractionally quicker and as he trundles down the pitlane, approaching Driver X's box Driver X accelerates out of the stop to 50km/h just to maintain track position - he then jumps on the anchors and reduces speed to 20km/h to ensure his average speed is 40km/h?

There is too much variation in a system like that - if my understanding of the system you are proposing is up to scratch.

As it currently stands, pit lane time lines have been installed at Sandown, Barbagallo, Hidden Valley, Wakefield Park and, I believe, Queensland Raceway.

The pit lane is divided into segments - usually between 50 and 60 metres in length maximum - so fo a car to 'stand on the anchors' to try and reduce speed would be totally ineffectual.

Of interest too is that the loops delineating each timing segment are not marked on the side of the track or on the pit wall. Whilst the driver may know approximately where the timing loops are physically located, he/she would have a hard job knowing exactly when his transmitter records his/her time on each loop.

An extension of these loops is currently being planned for Wakefield Park whereby an additional set spaced only 1 to 2 metres away from existing loops will be placed at pit entry and pit exit (and also possibly other loops in pit lane) so that a much more accurate speed at entry and exit can be recorded.

It should also be pointed out that whilst the speeds recorded in each 'sector' in pit lane is - in reality - an average over the distance between the two loops, no driver yet has been able to argue against their validity because, if they were to push the issue, the sector most drivers get caught in (either pit entry or pit exit) would likely reveal a high actual speed than their average speed.

As a for instance - it has been estimated that one driver at Wakefield Park recently, who was recorded at an average of 93 km/h at pit exit (an F3 that had moved from a complete stop at the end of the garages in pit lane) was actually doing in excess of 110 km/h when he crossed the white line marking the exit of pit lane. When this was pointed out to him by the stewards and asked if he wished to be charged with the more realistic speed, he dropped all arguments!

[lcfp2297]

Is the system installed at other tracks more accurate? Cheaper? more transparent? What exactly is the benefit?

As an example, a car travelling at 40km/h will cover the 50m in 4.5 sec, travelling at 41km/h the time is 4.4 sec...now that is possible and errors will be small.

Shortening the distance to 5 m (in order to measure entry and exit speeds), the distance will be covered in 0.45 sec and 0.44 sec respectively...can this be ACCURATELY measured using in-road loops? In this example, a 1cm error in the placement of one loop would cause a 0.01 sec error in the time measurement...or 1km/h in the velocity...

To refer to the road-going law books as has been done above, the legal distance is 200m for ACCURATE determination of velocity using distance and time measurements...

[flyingduck]

How does the fixed speed cameras work then I know they don't measure from 200m so do I now have a way to get off the tickets I have got

[SRabbit]

probably not because you get 16,000 signs warning you there is one coming up

[bestfit]

I don't know if it has been updated, but the Australian Standard for radar gun use a few years ago, had so many requirements that it was virtually impossible to obtain a reading that met all mandatory requirements and as such would stand up in a court proceeding.
From memory there were about 35 requirements ranging from calibration of the equipment, to the proximity of advertising signs, power lines etc. It meant that if you decided to have the infringement heard in court and went to the trouble of researching your offence against the standard, you would almost certainly find at least 1 breach of the standard and as such have the infringement cancelled.
Afriend of mine who at the time was a seargent in the NSW highway patrol, told me that the force was very slack in ensuring the calibration of their equipment was up to date and this was the main excuse used to wriggle out of fines.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by lcfp2297

Is the system installed at other tracks more accurate? Cheaper? more transparent? What exactly is the benefit?

As an example, a car travelling at 40km/h will cover the 50m in 4.5 sec, travelling at 41km/h the time is 4.4 sec...now that is possible and errors will be small.

Shortening the distance to 5 m (in order to measure entry and exit speeds), the distance will be covered in 0.45 sec and 0.44 sec respectively...can this be ACCURATELY measured using in-road loops? In this example, a 1cm error in the placement of one loop would cause a 0.01 sec error in the time measurement...or 1km/h in the velocity...

To refer to the road-going law books as has been done above, the legal distance is 200m for ACCURATE determination of velocity using distance and time measurements...

The DATA-1 system is accurate to 1/10,000th of a second and, being the accepted timing system in use throughout Australia, this accuracy is 'claimed' by its manufacturer, Dorian Industries, to be 'spot on' (their words, not those of teh circuits). That said, they have never had the system certified for World Record attempts despite local requests to do so.

The patented system DATA-1 times by is designed to ensure that the same timing point is used for every transmitter at all times - given a perfect world where the mounting of the transmitter on the car is perfect, it isn't too high and the antennas have been tuned properly - the system IS accurate to its stated figure.

I take your point though, that a 1 cm difference in measurement can have, over very short distances, a marked effect - thus it is usual to have the time lines measured by certified surveyors (however, only Hidden Valley has had this done thus far apparently). It also requires, for speed traps to be used over very small distances (i.e. under 2-3 metres) the time lines to be perfectly parallel to each other.

Difficult but not impossible for the appropriate tradespeople to complete.

Sandown was the first CAMS track to have speed traps installed - one at the old start/finish line and a second just before the bridge coming down the back straight into Dandenong Road. Hidden Valley also has a speed trap at the end of the main straight however it is believed that none of these speed traps are currently being used by AVESCO.

No other track, apart from Calder Park both National and Thunderdome circuits, have speed traps installed which is crazy given the relatively small cost to install one on the equipment the tracks already own. (I understand that Wakefield Park may soon have one or maybe more installed though).

Sounds surprisingly simple to me, far more accurate and reliable than a bloke with his radar gun pointing at passing trees

[Just Do It!]

What happens if it is in a Formula Ford and the said distance must be 1.6 metres minimum from the front of the car.... and one car sets his at 1.8 metres....... how does that effect the margin of error??

[adz_34]

Everyone is missing the point, just like on the road, if you dont want to cop a fine for speeding drive under the speed limit, remember you have anywhere between 1 and 40km to drive there is no reason to go over, dont do it by .1km/ph do it by .5km/ph surely the time loss is worth it for security aint it?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

What happens if it is in a Formula Ford and the said distance must be 1.6 metres minimum from the front of the car.... and one car sets his at 1.8 metres....... how does that effect the margin of error??

It doesn't matter where the timing transmitter is placed as the timing system is actually timing the transmitter and NOT the front of the car. The longer the speed trap the greater is the effect of accelerating or decelerating - thus for 'instantaneous speeds' a very small distance is used.

Interestingly, only one car is kmown to have tried to mount a 'moveable' transmitter in his car - on an elongated hole but even then he could only move it around 10 cm....didn't work in the end as it got jammed in the cradle!

Originally Posted by adz_34

Everyone is missing the point, just like on the road, if you dont want to cop a fine for speeding drive under the speed limit, remember you have anywhere between 1 and 40km to drive there is no reason to go over, dont do it by .1km/ph do it by .5km/ph surely the time loss is worth it for security aint it?

The problem is that the radar units in use have a wide spread and you CANNOT guarantee that the vehicle you are aimng at is the one reporting the speed - especially at Oran Park where the main track is located immediately BEHIND cars entering pit lane

[Tourer]

Sorry guys but the "guns" in use are definately lasers, not radars - therefore all this talk of trees etc goes out the window.

[SRabbit]

where abouts is the laser situated in pitlane? can they difinitevly say that they were doing 43km/h in the pitlane, or is there a chance they took the reading while the car was literally 1 metre off coming over the line? coming down from about 140km/h a 43km/h reading is very possible this close to the line - who is watching the line if they are watching the reading??

[Morris 1100]

I used the Avesco radar gun at Wakefield a few years back during a break and the fastest thing on the track was a flagpole! 43kph!

[RotorFan]

Either the radar gun needs to be closer to the pit entry or they need a sound in the operators ear as the car passes the control line, so they know to take the next reading from the radar after that beep.

I can't believe they went to the effort of showing that they didn't exceed 40 km/h. It was obviously at pit entry. I also can't beleive there is such a cufuffle over these penalties, when you can't prove they were wrong, whereas you CAN prove Skaife did NOT jump the start. I (and anyone else who recorded the races) have video evidence that he didn't move the car until the other cars had moved. You just have to go frame by frame and see the suspension lift on all the cars. He didn't jump the start, the officials imagined he did and so they penalised him. This is what should have been the topic of discussion if anything.

[SRabbit]

actually rotorfan they can and did prove that Lowndes did not exceed 39.4km/h using TEGA's own in-car data-logger. The only reason that it could not be overturned even though the penalty was shown to be wrong is that the gun operator is a judge of fact which means basically over and above the law and there is no course for appeal on one of their decisions.
RPM reprted they consulted police experts and were told that to issue a fine on the road they have to get a 3 second lock before the speed is recorded - well the line for pit entry is right after a dogleg shape metal barrier - the gun would have about 3/10ths of a second to lock onto the car - and this is on top of the fact that the gun was 150m away from the line - as i said about 3 posts back - if they are watching the reading who is watching the line? and the cufuffle is that the championship and race leader was robbed, and then the guy who up until that penalty may have had a million to one shot at the championship but none the less a shot especially with the car speed he has been showing was robbed as well - and if anyone wants to argue that may be streching it ( I am an eternal optimist after all ) he had the chance to be the first guy this year to win 3 rounds at least - i can tell you that myself, and the 2 people i was with looked at each other, and without saying a word packed up and left, and it was a battle with the Ambrose fans to get out.

[lcfp2297]

Originally Posted by SRabbit

actually rotorfan they can and did prove that Lowndes did not exceed 39.4km/h using TEGA's own in-car data-logger.

What did the trace on RPM show? Actual track speed? How do they measure this? The trace they showed on RPM showed the WHEEL SPEED or some equivalent (NOT ROAD SPEED) dropped far below 40km/h equivalent!!!!

Ever heard of a partly sliding wheel!!!

And where was the corresponding piece of data? i.e. TRACK LOCATION (to the cm please?)

[SRabbit]

the trace did show wheel speed and I know you arent a fool and know that road speed is calculated by revoltuions of the wheel within a ceratin time frame with consideration of the circumferance of the wheel - so both are one and the same - if the wheel locked and he slid it would be a 'reverse' spike and show and speed of zero ( try a handbraky in your car and see what your speedo says - zero ) - if you taped it go back and watch it - no spike in either direction

[GregM]

Personally, I think the issue is not whether the drivers are over the limit by 2-3kph as they cross the line at pit entry but the fact that the penalty is too harsh.

If a driver is doing their best to reach 40kph by the time they cross the line and they miss it by a couple of metres it has little or no bearing on the outcome of the race,or the safety of people in pit lane.

To then impose a penalty of 30-40 secs is incredibly harsh, can ruin a teams day and leaves the punters feeling robbed. The penalty does not fit the crime.

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally Posted by lcfp2297

And where was the corresponding piece of data? i.e. TRACK LOCATION (to the cm please?)

Is this also available from the speed gun operator? where was that person standing in relation to the pit entry line?

The system currently in use appears to have a 0% leaway policy but the procedure employed to measure it is wide open to human error.

A good idea would be to have a beam at pit entry/exit that triggers a speed gun and a large digital display board so the driver can see if they were caught speeding. Plus of course, have a person operating a manual speed gun to catch speeders when in pit lane proper.

[lcfp2297]

Originally Posted by SRabbit

the trace did show wheel speed and I know you arent a fool and know that road speed is calculated by revoltuions of the wheel within a ceratin time frame with consideration of the circumferance of the wheel - so both are one and the same - if the wheel locked and he slid it would be a 'reverse' spike and show and speed of zero ( try a handbraky in your car and see what your speedo says - zero ) - if you taped it go back and watch it - no spike in either direction

Are you sure it was wheel speed? It seemed to dip WELL below the flat line that they were saying was the travel along pit lane...

Seemed to me that it was measuring at the gearbox maybe? I don't know, what I do know is that if all the car did was SLOW down to 40km/h, then the trace would not have dropped below 40km/h as was shown on TV...

GregM, so do we allow them 2 m?, then they overshoot that...The point is they CAN slow down well before the line, but choose not too. Give them leeway and they'll take it! But I suppose you would have already read that in this thread...

Cheers