"Course" Grade Scrapped?

[Stack]

Originally Posted by scorch

Snatching is being used at more and more circuits, it's a skilled job and it would be nice to have the MSA grade give it a proper specialist grade.

....and oval observing.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by scorch

Snatching is being used at more and more circuits, it's a skilled job and it would be nice to have the MSA grade give it a proper specialist grade.

If the people doing it are marshals, not recovery crews, then yes, it would be good to have it recognised as a specialisation.

[chezza]

At silverstone it is mostly the marshals that do the snatching, with recovery only doing it at the end of sessions.

Would be good to have it as an extra grade.

Landys stuck in the mud...not very often...fortunatley!

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

If the people doing it are marshals, not recovery crews, then yes, it would be good to have it recognised as a specialisation.

At Brands Hatch it is Marshals carrying out "snatch" recovery, albeit with the "employed" Marshals actually operating the Manito/JCB type vehicle, but with help from Incident Marshals, from the "volunteer" force; therefore a "team"effort. Sorry, but the post about tying a strop to a car and then getting a Land Rover stuck in the mud, I find rather insulting, and really not worthy of comment. However, I feel this is a dig at another Circuit where I do not normally Marshal, so I think it is in order that I can comment!!! (Being fair and unbiased!)
I also agree that more Circuits are carrying out "snatch"; it is the only way forward to prevent long periods under sterilisation with a Safety Car. At least only the two Posts adjacent to the snatch are operating a sterile area for overtaking, plus the clear run to the Green Flag at the next.

[DarrellB]

Archaic why do you find Firefox's comment insulting?

Was it you??? you can tell us!

I think now the line between incident and course is becomming more blurred. It is mostly intended as a sign of experience but then there are many course marshals with many years of experience that just haven't bothered upgrading as what they do on the circuit will be the same thing at either grade.

At marshals training for next year I am intending to group all course and incident marshals together as I feel that all trackside marshals need all the skills involved in incident handling.

[Hepatic]

just to put the "grade track" right:

Trainee can go to either Course or Specialist (pits/assembly etc). from Course you can go to flag or incident (i'm doing both atm, along with specialist!). Then from incident you can progress to IO or flag then Obs, and from flag you can also move to obs. Its all in this wonderful piece of internet wizardry > http://www.marshals.co.uk/new/files/grading.pdf

I had a little snatch training at Silverstone for the GP this year, and also had some hands on experience at A1GP at Zandvoort. I'm not sure it requires its own grade (pits/assembly/comms are all under specialist), but certainly should be covered in training.

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by DarrellB

Archaic why do you find Firefox's comment insulting?

Was it you??? you can tell us!

Firstly, no it was n't me; as I said it was, I would think, at another Circuit at which I do not normally Marshal. Perhaps not quite insulting, but inappropiate, in that everybody can make a mistake, and to publish somebody, who probably just misjudged the situation, got it wrong, and has to live with the consequences is unfair. The majority of snatches I have seen have been very professional and well executed, so I stand by my comment that to pick on one incident as a pathetic way of handling an "off" does not mean that snatching is not a skilled job. All snatch vehicle operators that I know of have to go on a Training Course - shades of H&S etc!!!

[CombeMarshal]

I'm sure even the driver found it funny!! Chill out a bit!
It could have been worse, It could have been the Course car (Prescott) or the Doctors car (Combe) that crashed!!!

[Jordygirl]

I have just submitted my upgrade card to BMMC from trainee to Course. It could be interesting to see what comes back. Have heard talk that MSA have been approached to add a new specialist catagory - Oval Racing - to take into account the likes of SCSA at Rockingham.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Jordygirl

- to take into account the likes of SCSA at Rockingham.

Is that the series that runs 8 cars?
The one that is on a Yellow Card?
The One that won't be around in 2008?

There's not enought Oval Racing in the UK to warrant it IMHO

[knickerbrook]

hi, i put my card in for upgrading in june/july to upgrade to COURSE got it back about 3 weeks ago on a sat morning.

it said reg No then grade: course marshal.

so course marshal is still on the msa list,as i have been upgraded to course marshal by the msa.

through the right tracks. (not being nasty to the students there y saying the right tracks) but the tracks that the non motorsport students go through.

hope this info helps.

[Stephen Green]

At the moment the grading scheme is as it has been for ages. There is a review being undertaken by the MSA which I am sure the majority of clubs, including the BMMC, will be giving their input.

Like many others, I find it hard to make a real distinction between the Course and Incident grade and feel it would be a sensible move to combine the two, especially as both do the same job in most cases. I do agree that the grading scheme needs updating from time to time but to my knowledge, nothing has been officially agreed yet. As soon as it is I am sure there will be an announcement made on the BMMC website as well as on ten-tenths.

Snatching is something that more and more circuits are doing, it is no longer just Silverstone that operates the system (and very well they do it too). My personal view is that it doesn't need a specialist grade as the manner snatching is done varies from circuit to circuit. For example, at Silverstone there are designated snatch crews who work extremely well as a team, and have the system down to a fine art. At MSV circuits however, the snatch vehicles are driven by MSV staff with marshals assisting. The net result is the same, the operational part is slightly different. I'm sure each has it's merit.

So in short, you need to wait to find out what the MSA review says. I'm sure the Course and Incident grades will become one, but until it's officially announced we can but speculate.

I hope that clears up one or two issues?

[Nighthawk]

I agree it is hard to make a real distinction between the Course and Incident,
In fact when i am on post i allocate both with the same duty.
So at the end of the day if course grade was to go i dont think it would have any impact.
As for snatch i think it would be helpfull if this sort of training was included in all our training days.

[scorch]

It's interesting to see Archaic found firefox's comments a bit out of order.
as he has done snatching and does not come to silverstone, and i too find his comments a bit off and i do do snatching at silverstone... (snatch crews of the country are obviously united)

To say it's easy to hook up a bit of rope to a car and pull it out, it like saying anybody can do flagging after all it's only waving a flag it's not that difficult!!!

I'm sure all the flag marshalls out there are throwing their hands up in horror at that statement, but i believe it does put the fact that snatching needs to become a specialist grade into perspective.

[Mark Mitchell]

By making snatch a Specialist grade, I fear that it will cause a rift between the "Snatch-Man" and the rest of the Incident team.

Snatching is a skill - granted, but isn't "Ordinary" incident work?

I think if the Course Grade is scrapped, then the Incident grade should perhaps have two levels to it.

Incident - Level 1 for Marshals with less than X years experience and then you progress to Incident - Level 2 for those with a bit more experience.

IO's IMHO, should be able to report back to the Chief IO or Chef Marshal to recommend an upgrade to the next level.

[Stephen Green]

Surely that's the job of the Observer Mark?

[haystacks]

I dont see any problem with combining the two grades, as when I was a trainee at Brands we were given Course, incident, & Fire training at the training days anyway.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Incident - Level 1 for Marshals with less than X years experience and then you progress to Incident - Level 2 for those with a bit more experience.

The problem with that is that it's not the years that count - it's the mileage.

A time designation just doesn't work - you can get one marshal that does 2 or 3 days a year and another that does nearly 20 or 30, so it's just not a good way of determining experience. I know quite a few marshals that have been at this longer than me - but in terms of bank days (not to mention different circuits and different racing disciplines) I would have more experience than them.

[chezza]

I think mark has a point in that if they are to scrap the course grade the incident should have two levels.

Either that or you have to get the normal 20 sigs (maybe reduced to 15) over say at least two years to achieve the grade.

[EvilPumpkin]

but what's the difference then between having course and incident and having incident I and incident II.

Surely it's just changing the name?

[chezza]

Very true EP, but I think what we are all getting at is that people can't go straight from trainee to incident.

[EvilPumpkin]

Well that really depends on if you're going for ideal or reality.

Because as i think has been noted elsewhere in the thread, the majority of people really do go from trainee to incident for all practical purposes.

To me, it seems that the course grade is possibly the equivalent of the letter "R" that UK drivers have to have for the first year they pass their test?

[Stephen Green]

I disagree. At the moment we have Course and Incident, and to most people there is no difference between the two grades, so why should a trainee not go straight to incident as they would to course?

I also disgaree that there should be incident 1 and incident 2. Surely that's what the new grade is trying to avoid?

What we must avoid is a lengthy transition from Trainee to Incident as I feel that will put many new marshals off. If the signatures required are 15-20 then I would be comfortable with that as many trainees would be able to achieve that within a season or two.

We have to consider what the impact of a lengthy trainee period would be to recruitment!

[Stephen Green]

sorry EP I was replying to Chezza's post not yours

[EvilPumpkin]

I always had the impression (and it's probably completely wrong, so I'm fully prepared to be stomped on..! ) that the Course grade was a little easier to achieve than the Incident grade.

I know to get an upgrade sig for Incident, you actually had to do incident related stuff, whereas with Course the criteria was a bit more relaxed and geared towards knowing how to look after yourself and work a post etc. - so in theory, you didn't necessarily have to have an incident to get a Course upgrade sig - provided you'd been doing stuff like say an oil clean up or sweeping etc.

Now that was just an impression I had and could be completely wrong.