Brabham BT14

[grice80]

Yes, we were always going to have to prove the cars history,but remember the history of FL-9-65 is well documented.
One of the reasons for being so public on this forum is that one of you guys out there might have some information on the car prior to Mr Rizzi ownership.
Please understand this car appears to be a genuine Brabham(well used) in every aspect,the chassis,welding tube,AM no:,dash ,switches chassis plate,oil tank uprights,etc,etc,etc.
So whilst it is unlikely to be a BT14(although stranger things have happened),IT may well be a BT15/16 modified some 20 or so years ago.If it is then so be it we will restore the car as such but can do nothing without the real history.
So any help would be greatly appreciated>

[PeterMorley]

A Pierluigi Rizzi was racing at Monza in 2004, in a Lucchini A.R. (some kind of sports car - possibly a modified Alfa Romeo?).

http://www.monzanet.it/AreaImmagini/...orscheiscr.pdf

Other people in the race include Ripamonti, you might be able to find out more through someone like that.
There are several Italian Junior & F3 racers listed on the Formula Junior For Sale list, maybe ask them if they know Mr Rizzi?

http://www.formulajunior.com/Newslet...r%20No125A.doc

Mr Rizzi also went off circuit at Imola in 2002 (judging by the other cars in the race this would have been in your Brabham)

http://www.piavejolly.com/ita/pagine...11-10-2002.htm

Maybe one of those leads will prove profitable?

[allenbrown]

I think this link will be more direct:

http://www.karenbrown.com/property.a...0-d9b3175f8641

Note: "Your host is a surgeon with a passion for vintage cars and car racing".

Edit: or even more direct:

http://www.villa-albarea.com/contacting.htm

[grice80]

Thanking you gents very much for the info: I have spoken to MR Rizzi who unfortunately was of little help.(even though he seemed pretty genuine)

He says he purchased the vehical in Belguim some 5/6 years ago in the same format/condition etc that it still is in.

He thinks the FIA papers were with it and thats about all he can recall.

Well I suppose its a start,any of you guys know of a car like this that was in Belguim ,or have any contacts their?

He claimed to know nothing about the coys misreprestation etc.

[allenbrown]

If the FIA papers pre-date him, they should give the name of the owner at the time they were written.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by grice80

Thanking you gents very much for the info: I have spoken to MR Rizzi who unfortunately was of little help.(even though he seemed pretty genuine)

He says he purchased the vehical in Belguim some 5/6 years ago in the same format/condition etc that it still is in.

He thinks the FIA papers were with it and thats about all he can recall.

Well I suppose its a start,any of you guys know of a car like this that was in Belguim ,or have any contacts their?

He claimed to know nothing about the coys misreprestation etc.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I'm in Belgium and had a Brabham twin-cam, which I'm pretty sure isn't your car - Alan Baillie would have recognised it, since he rebuilt it after the back end was wiped off on the Eau Rouge barriers. I saw it in Germany a few years ago and it was still red with gold stripe & wheels.

The other Brabham twin-cam that was here belonged to Thierry Demortier (I think that is the correct name), who ran (runs?) a car upholstery company in Brussels, he later moved onto 1600cc F2 cars.
I saw it at Willie Widar's (builder of the Widi's in the 60s) when he was finishing it, one clue as to its origin was someone had written Brabham F3 on the battery! This would have been nearly 20 years ago.....
That car was finished in tradition Brabham green/gold, and had a 1600cc twin cam (despite which my 1500cc version usually lapped it!).

Unfortunately Willie died, but his son Marc has taken over the business Philippe Demeyer (phdm on this forum) is in contact with Marc who might have some records of the car.
I found the following e-mail address but have no idea if it is valid: widi@advalvas.be

Hope that helps!

[Marcus Mussa]

Alan B. concurs with this – his “educated guess” is a BT15 F3 car that WW got his hands on. He converted the F3 engine to FJ, sold it to Alan whereupon it promptly blew up, and probably fitted a twin cam into the F3 chassis. Alan cannot remember the name of the person it belonged to before WW. Marc would have been very young then so probably does not know much about it, but one can always try. And of course Demortier is still very active with his F2 car, so he should be contacted.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Alan B. concurs with this – his “educated guess” is a BT15 F3 car that WW got his hands on. He converted the F3 engine to FJ, sold it to Alan whereupon it promptly blew up, and probably fitted a twin cam into the F3 chassis. Alan cannot remember the name of the person it belonged to before WW. Marc would have been very young then so probably does not know much about it, but one can always try. And of course Demortier is still very active with his F2 car, so he should be contacted.

Should be able to tell if it was a BT15 or 18 based on the center bulkhead (square or round tube construction), and if it had tall or short uprights.

How unusual to hear that a WW engine went wrong!

I don't think Marc had much involvement with the cars at the time, but it is possible Willie kept some records, so he might know where the car came from.

Demortier should be easy to find, but he might not have been aware of the car's origin.

WW used to work closely with a couple of people - Leo Schildkamp and a French guy called Patrick something, they could be possible sources for the car.

PHDM might know more or be able to dig, I'll point him at this thread.

Peter

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Now we're getting somewhere.
The other Brabham twin-cam that was here belonged to Thierry Demortier (I think that is the correct name), who ran (runs?) a car upholstery company in Brussels, he later moved onto 1600cc F2 cars.
Hope that helps!

I have it as Thierry De Mortier (happy to be corrected) and he now owns BT23-3 ex Frank Gardner, -one of Gérard Gamand's finds from about 1984.

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

a French guy called Patrick something

Peter

Patrick Jamin? Nogaro. A French version of WW (say no more).

Marcus

[grice80]

Thankyou again guys for the leads and information,have sent an E-mail to the Marc Widar address and it seem to be current so i will wait for a reply,hopefully.
I have also tracked an E-mail address for Thirry Demortier so hopefully a reply may also come from their.
But please donot stop fowarding any information that you may think of.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Patrick Jamin? Nogaro. A French version of WW (say no more).

Marcus

Could well be (rings a vague bell) - I remember they were 'partners' with the Lotus 15.

I always remember listening to WW explain to customers that all Climax FW cylinder heads were porous so it was impossible to keep the water in the engines and they always expired.

I never understood how these customers failed to notice all the other FW powered cars that managed to complete their races!

[phdm]

As far as I know, the De Mortier "BT14" was in the UK and IIRC was advertised for sale in Autosport one or two years ago.

FL-9-65 was for sale on race-cars.com a few years ago. It was in California. Check the archives.

Luigi Moreschi had a BT14 for sale some time ago. It has now been removed from his web site. I suspect it probably was the car entered in the Monaco auction.

[Racesport]

Yes, PHDM, I can confirm that the Bt14 that Mr. Moreschi had on his site was the same owned by Mr. Rizzi and then sold in Monaco.

[allenbrown]

I paged through some old versions of Mr Moreschi's site and found this:



It was described as a 1965 BT21 with a 1.5-litre twin cam. Is this the car sold at Monaco?

[grice80]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I paged through some old versions of Mr Moreschi's site and found this:



It was described as a 1965 BT21 with a 1.5-litre twin cam. Is this the car sold at Monaco?

Yes this is definatly the car! What can anyone tell us about it.

[Andrew Fellowes]

So Pierluigi Rizzi buys his BT14 from Belgium in about 2001. And subsequently lets Moreschi Motorsport advertise it for sale as a BT21, presumably suffering memory loss that it’s a BT14. Rizzi then lets Coys have the car and in turn Coys muddle their 8s & 9s, and confuse Belgium for the Belgium that’s next to Australia.

Thierry De Mortier’s car, (was possibly for sale in UK 2 years ago?) was bought from Willy Widar who had the car about 20 years ago in turn possibly bought out of the UK.
Is this the same car as above?

Thierry holds the key to the short term answer, good luck grice80, you’re going to need it!

Andrew

[phdm]

Althoiugh I would not bet on it I think the De Mortier BT14 had Revolution wheels, not Brabham wobblies.

I also remember clearly that number on the chassis plate was BT14-"a number that I don't remember" and not FL-"still a number that I don't remember"-65 but obviously a plate is easily changed.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by phdm

Althoiugh I would not bet on it I think the De Mortier BT14 had Revolution wheels, not Brabham wobblies.

I also remember clearly that number on the chassis plate was BT14-"a number that I don't remember" and not FL-"still a number that I don't remember"-65 but obviously a plate is easily changed.

Most F3 wheels are wider than 1½ F1 wheels so Revolutions would not be surprising.

So far there is nothing to connect De Mortier's Brabham with the one that we are discussing (apart from speculation on my part!), that presumably went to the UK as Philippe has suggested.

The Moreschi car would seem to be the one.
A 1965 BT21 must have been a very early prototype!! So early that the chassis is less substantial than production cars.....

Does Mr Moreschi have any additional information?

[Chris Townsend]

Wouldn't a 1965 BT21 be a BT15 with BT21 mods?
The prototype BT21 was a mid 1966 car, raced by John Kendall in 1967 and unlike any other BT21 it had the older style Brabham chassis designation, including the date.

Chris

[grice80]

Lots of speculation and its all great,somewhere along the line the truth will come out.
Please keep in mind I am absolutely sure it is a Brabham (arch motors chassis) definatly BT14/15/16.
I have had,been involved,worked on and studied enough of these cars to know am AM chassis.
I have never seen any other source replicate the gas flux weld quality of their work.But it is possible I could be wrong.
Also all the parts on the car are original stuff.
I believe Dennis is of the same opinion.

Once again thanks for everyones interest and help.

[Racesport]

Originally Posted by grice80

Lots of speculation and its all great,somewhere along the line the truth will come out.
Please keep in mind I am absolutely sure it is a Brabham (arch motors chassis) definatly BT14/15/16.
I have had,been involved,worked on and studied enough of these cars to know am AM chassis.
I have never seen any other source replicate the gas flux weld quality of their work.But it is possible I could be wrong.
Also all the parts on the car are original stuff.
I believe Dennis is of the same opinion.

Once again thanks for everyones interest and help.

I'm quite sure that it is a genuine Brabham.

The problem of that car, when I was interested in, was that it was claimed to be a Formula 1 car.

As you prbably know, there are a couple of BT14 "FL" raced some Formula 1 races: the FL-6-65 was driven by Rodney Bloor in a couple of non championship Formula 1 races (Goodwood and Brands Hatch) and also another BT 14 was in the F1 Goowood race (the FL-8-65) with John Cardwell.

The problem was that, at least until 2005, the FL-6-65 was the car of Mr Rodger Newman and Mr. Rizzi did not give me any evidence about the F1 history of the car.

And, in any case, it was not possible for me to understand which model of Brabham it was.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Allen when did you 'harvest' that photo?

Andrew

[allenbrown]

I found it in archive.org in 2004 and 2005 versions of the site.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Thanks Allen, so Moreschi Motorsport must have had it on consignment for Rizzi as he says bought it 5/6 years ago.

The implication is that 2 years ago neither of them knew what it was.