Electronic driving aids?

[Kirk]

With all the focus on new qualifying rules and the introduction of the V8 for 2006, the proposed banning of electronic driving aids in 2005 (particularly TC) has received little ink. Does anyone know where that stands?

[Marbot]

As far as i know all the driver aids remain the same for 2005,traction control,paddle shifts,toothbrushes etc.

[Dutton]

I am not aware on any change on that front and, ultimately, I think it is the best solution for the issue at the present moment in time.

[npperk]

It would be great, if it was possible to police properly, to see the cars on one set of tyres for qual and race AND no traction control.

Murray Walker would be sitting at home going "SPIN SPIN SPIN!" an awful lot!

[Marbot]

It happens all the time in MOTOGP,I think Murray would like F1 to be more like MOTOGP.

[Knowlesy]

TC will remain for yeaars to come most likely and most unfortunately.

[Kirk]

Bur Bernie seemed quite adamant last year about banning such and I haven't heard of him softening that stance. It was a given as far as I was concerned. In fact I was under the impression that teams were preparing their 2005 cars with TC out of the equation. The only reaon that it took until 2005, was that the teams convinced Bernie that it would be too disruptive and costly (and a safety risk I suppose) to introduce it in 2004 as the teams needed more time to prepare.

[Knowlesy]

I think that was the original stance Kirk but I'm sure they all came to an agreement to ban only the auto boxes and launch control from 2004 onwards. TC stays as far as I'm aware.......

[Marbot]

TC and hard tyres = lots of misfiring,yuk.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by knowlesy
I think that was the original stance Kirk but I'm sure they all came to an agreement to ban only the auto boxes and launch control from 2004 onwards. TC stays as far as I'm aware.......

Well, if that is the case, it sure was low key. I don't recall any announcement to that effect and I must say, if true, another example of the powerless and weak governing bodies in F1. What a shame that rules like this are left intact mainly due to the fact that cheaters are so good at cheating, that they can't be caught.

[RWC]

No matter what they try to ban and whatever rules they make as regards to TC,there is allways a reasonable workable fully legal solution to give some control to wheelspin.it is SOOOO easy to do

Of course most of the arguments against TC are to do with drivers sliding the cars about.The facts are(with aero grip so dominant at least) that they are faster if they don't get them sideways.

Even if there was a total ban on aero,a properly set up car would 4 wheel slide ,NOT slide sideways like peterson,etc used to drive.


Give it up guys.You will NEVER get any benifit from trying to ban TC.

[luke]

Sure it would be great if it went, at least automatic gear boxes, launch control and the onboard computer from the pits that fixes cars is banned.

When Traction control became legal at the '01 Spanish Grand prix there wasn't any less mistakes from then on.

All traction control does is change the way an F1 driver uses his skill not stop it.

[Knowlesy]

There are less mistakes and those made are less severe.

I remember when TC was going to be banned, Schuey came in and started whingeing about safety issues or some rubbish.

I mean, when the cars didn't have TC I never heard him whingeing about safety levels. Lunacy!

[Knowlesy]

Although he did also say he preferred having TC because it allowed the car to be taken closer to the edge, which is fair point but I'd rather see drivers on the edge, not cars.

[T0MAT01]

Does this mean they're not adopting the standard FIA spec ECU for every car then?

It was mentioned with Max's cost cutting measures but I haven't heard of it since.

[Knowlesy]

I think like most sensible suggestions from the FIA it has sunk without trace.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by knowlesy
Although he did also say he preferred having TC because it allowed the car to be taken closer to the edge, which is fair point but I'd rather see drivers on the edge, not cars.

Exactly. That's what driving is about. F1 drivers of yesteryear must just shake their heads at this lunacy.

[Glen]

The drivers ARE on the edge. If the drivers of yesteryear shake their heads, it is beause they misunderstand the lunacy. Look at the egg on Lauda's face when he couldn't get the Jag within EIGHT seconds of a decent lap time - and then he span it to boot. Look at the shock JV got at how much F1 had moved on in less than a year - more physical, and the races much more extremely paced from the off.

If TC does what you guys imagine it does, how does anyone every spin? Why is the difference between a good and bad driver so apparent?

[Kirk]

With all the talk about slowing down the cars, taking away LC would be an excellent start. Of course the drivers can still spin out and of course F1 is physically demanding but come on Glen, this is the pinnacle of racing.
As for a drivers ability being SO apparent, I would argue the opposite. Electronic aids narrow that gap and a driver (more and more it seems) must rely on the car he is driving to showcase his talent. It is very difficult to decipher who the most talented drivers are. In fact, I'd bet if you asked 25 knowledgable F1 people who the top 20 drivers were and you would get 25 different answers.

[Glen]

I strongly disagree!

What you say appears to make superficial sense, but is just plain NOT borne out in reality. The difference between drivers in the same team is very marked and consistent. It is very EASY to decipher who the most talented are. Examples? What about Button and Sato? Obvious to anyone with eyes. Kimi and DC? MS and RB? Of course there are rare examples of teams with evenly matched drivers - Ralf and JPM always seemed pretty similar, albeit with different qualities.

Top 20 drivers? Huh? There are only 20 in it!

Top five or seven would be pretty easy to establish though, and I don't think you'd find a great deal of disagreement on opinion or evidence.

If you are trying to argue that a big difference in lap times between two drivers in the same car is down to factors other than driver input, then I'd love to hear the explanation. It is Monday after all - I need a good laugh.

[Kirk]

You missed my point entirely. How about Fisi vs RB, JPM vs Alonso, Sato vs Heidfeld, Button vs Webber, Massa vs Trulli etc.... Different teams, different performance, pretty well based on the performance of the car each is driving.

[Glen]

Formula One is a Constructor's formula, as well as a driving championship. There are thousands factors of factors causing one car to be faster than another on a certain circuit on a certain day - electronics account for some of those differences. If you took out all the electronics you'd still have thousands of variables adding up to a difference in performance between two cars conforming to the same rules. This has always been the case, but nowadays the cars are more consistent and the teams make far fewer mistakes. This is precisely what I pointed out to start with.

The driving is more refined and consistent too nowadays, in my opinion. I loved Mansell, but how was it possible for him to put on a famous "charge" after half the race was run? If he did that today he'd get a *******ing for not going flat out in the first place!

The only way to assess the quality of a driver with any certainty is to observe how they go vs another driver in the same car. When one guy convincingly and consistently out-does his team-mate (or better still a succession of team-mates) you can be confident that there is a high quality driver. Like Kimi, MS, Webber, Fisi etc. And that assessment can be made either with or without electronic driver aids.

[DougK]

Surely its a change of skills the drivers have. For instance when there was little telemetry coming from the cars the drivers had to feel and judge more , listen to how the engine responded. Now they are TOLD what is happening by the pit crews. Drivers had to think about foot and hand coordination whilst changing gear as well as remebering where to break, how hard to plant their foot on the accelerator. What I am saying is stick MS in a 20 year old car against a top driver of that time and would he be any better? I doubt it.
F1 if its to become interesting once again and pass skills back to the driver not the pit crew is to go back to basics. One simple solution is to simply ban all communication between car and pits apart from the drivers radio - then we will see which driver has the best overall skills.

[Glen]

Originally posted by DougK
... - then we will see which driver has the best overall skills.

Am I to take it that there is some doubt in your mind as to which driver is the most skillful? Because there is not the slightest shred of doubt in my mind, or that of any of the F1 team principals as far as I have heard it reported.

[Dutton]

I personally do not think there has been a great deal of difference between watching races with or without TC. Okay, if you really concentrate there is a perceptible difference....just..... but seriously, it is not that relevant.

It tests the drivers in another area, it is not like an F1 car with TC suddenly makes it an incredibly ewasy thing to do FFS...

I prefer it with TC, for the one simple reason that it precvents the constant *****ing and whining about teams cheating and so on.....

Before it was re-introduced there were times that it was like the disinformation campaigns of the Cold War.....