Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[chernaudi]

And you wonder why you're on ignore. The fines mean nothing. Dieselgate is just public justification for Audi pulling out due to not wanting to "copy" Porsche and Toyota, and no other "interesting" drivetrain concepts.

Another forum left. I got better things to do than argue with people who don't listen.

[Akrapovic]

Well if we're going to try and bait people then lets at least be accurate.

The Audi LMP project paid the price for the Audi parent company being the first to be caught, and being unlucky enough to be running diesel engines in racing. Further tests have found Volvo, Renault, Hyundai, FIAT and Citreon are all even worse than VW, whilst Opel, Jaguar, Mercedes, Ford, Mazda and BMW are also testing double the original test values.

We lost an LMP team because some people completely disconnected were the first to get caught. I'd have thought that't make people a bit sad, rather than go for the mocking route.

However, chernaudi I disagree with your opinion that dieselgate is the excuse. We wouldn't be having this discussion if they weren't caught, so it isn't the excuse, it's the very reason.

[Redlake27]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Well if we're going to try and bait people then lets at least be accurate.

The Audi LMP project paid the price for the Audi parent company being the first to be caught, and being unlucky enough to be running diesel engines in racing. Further tests have found Volvo, Renault, Hyundai, FIAT and Citreon are all even worse than VW, whilst Opel, Jaguar, Mercedes, Ford, Mazda and BMW are also testing double the original test values.

There are two Dieselgates....

The real driving conditions story that you quote is rather different to VW's Dieselgate.

Yes, the official emissions tests are daft, and almost every manufacturer of diesel cars tunes their engines to comply in test conditions rather than normal driving.

But VAG actually had a 'cheat mode'.


Or to make a Motorsport comparison, every decent race team will try to build bodywork that flexes within the regulations. But very few would dare to hide a switch which adjusts the wings. Sadly, VAG chose to cheat, the others (so far) seem to have just optimised a misguided rule.

And as the LMP1 effort was a marketing programme to promote 'Audi Diesel is great' , then it is entirely logical it should be a casualty. Sad, but logical.

[Akrapovic]

Whether you tune the car specifically for test, or you program a computer to do it for you, the result is the same - you're lowering emissions to get tax breaks. How it is achieved doesn't really matter. If you shoot someone with a gun or stab someone with a knife, the result is the same, you just achieved it differently. There is no difference in the emissions and there is no difference in the reasoning why. Any excuse on how they achieve it is just that - an excuse. They are all as guilty as each other, and VWs only crime was being the first to be discovered. If only VW are guilty because they went about it a different way then all we're doing is arguing technicalities rather than looking at motives and results - and those are what are actually important.

[Matt]

VAG really came under fire, not only because they were the first to get caught, but because they constantly promoted "clean diesel." It was a flat-out lie.

[chernaudi]

IMO, it's still an easy excuse for Audi Sport and VAG to terminate the program early. If Dieselgate was such a big deal, why didn't Audi Sport leave the WEC in 2015 if promotional values were such a concern? Having spent the time and energy to build up a new car didn't stop Peugeot from killing their program in the 11th hour in 2012.

The technical regs had screwed Audi over to various degrees since 2014, and in 2016, they built the fastest car at most races, but only won two. Under the technical regs, diesel engines had no real future due to the ACO's emphasis on hybrids. Due to the nature of the diesel engine (compression ignition vs spark ignition), a diesel engine will always be at least slightly heavier than an equivalent gasoline engine. Not to mention that the current LMP1s are 40kg lighter than in 2013 and 30kg lighter than 2012.

I personally think that the ACO forcing all manufacturers down the same path has not only considerably narrowed technical variety, but I think that's a big reason why Audi ultimately pulled out. Dieselgate didn't help matters, but I think it's only one part of the whole reason Audi Sport dumped LMP1. Not to mention spending a lot more money than in 2012/13 while winning fewer races the past couple of years.

[Redlake27]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

They are all as guilty as each other, and VWs only crime was being the first to be discovered.

Apart from Mitsubishi admitting cheating on Japanese microcars, I'm not able to recall which other car manufacturer has been found guilty of fitting cheat devices? I don't believe any have yet.

The difference between the others and VW-Audi is ingenuity v blatant cheating. Just like cooling fuel in F1 allowed teams to squeeze more in the tank (legal) but fitting a hidden tank (BAR) was a cheat.

Audi have contributed hugely to WEC and Le Mans. But the link between the cheating and the reasons for their motorsport marketing programme all come back to the same thing: Promoting Clean Diesel.

They cheated. And they are paying the price. But will bounce back.

Audi will be back, I'm sure. It may be linked to E-Tron. They are excellent marketeers and they also know that a break for a few years and then a comeback with a new technology message is far more impactful than just switching from Diesel to Petrol in successive years.

In the meantime, with Toyota and Porsche being forced to outspend each other on near-F1 budgets, the future of LMP1 needs an urgent review.

The new LMP2 cars set lap times at Sebring that would have split the Audis on the 2012 WEC grid.

Creating a class that combines the best ideas from LMP2+Kers, LMP1-NH and DPi could give us the sustainable, global LMP1 category that could attract OEMs seeking a strong return on investment.

[truebeliever]

Creating a class that combines the best ideas from LMP2+Kers, LMP1-NH and DPi could give us the sustainable, global LMP1 category that could attract OEMs seeking a strong return on investment.[/QUOTE]

Excellent ideas for the future.

Which of course means. the ACO will never do it, far to sensible for them.

[chernaudi]

Cost have spiraled with the advent of the huge hybrid systems. The ACO should've at least been more progressive with raising hybrid targets over a longer period of time.

It has to be remembered that 2016 was the original date for the expiration of the current regs. That got pushed back to first 2017, and now 2020.

I feel that with these three year plans, the ACO are asking too much, too fast. LMP900 and first gen LMP1 were much more stable rules that lasted a year or two longer. And there was more incentive to milk more out of existing machinery than having to build or extensively modify cars every season.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Redlake27

The difference between the others and VW-Audi is ingenuity v blatant cheating. Just like cooling fuel in F1 allowed teams to squeeze more in the tank (legal) but fitting a hidden tank (BAR) was a cheat.

I completely disagree. All of the manufacturers goal was to evade heavy taxation by governments by making the car appear to have lower emissions during the testing than what they did in the real world. Whether it is done through old fashioned mechanical tuning, whether it's done through the ECU, or whether it's done through sensors and different engine maps should not matter. The goal and intent was identical, just the approach was different.

The result is also identical. Cars are outputting far worse emissions than what they are legally permitted to do under their tax bands. VW isn't even the worst offender (not even in the top 5 of vehicles tested).

If the issue is that VW are giving out worse emissions than what they should then everybody is quality - every single one of them. A murder is a murder whether they use a gun or a knife. The intention and result is same. The execution (no pun intended) is circumstantial. VW are being made an example of to scare every other manufacturer. VW are rightfully being punished for evading taxes. But nobody else is being punished for committing the same crime.

[chernaudi]

Certainly not to the same degree, and others are offending worse than VAG have. And let's not forget GM waiting a decade to do something about the faulty ignition switches in their cars that killed several people. In my mind, the person or people responsible for that at GM should have to answer to manslaughter charges.

I'm a Ford fan, but I hold the deal with the Pinto fuel tanks against them. Not only did Ford not include the modified fuel filler necks as standard to save about $10 a car, but they even were wanting to also put a fuel cell bladder--similar to modern racing cars--in the fuel tank. That was until the bean counters stepped in. And they should be held to task for manslaughter charges and civil prosecution for medical bills and property damage.

Let's not pretend that VAG are alone in America or the World for fabricating emissions or fuel mileage ratings to cheat car buyers out of money or governments out of tax dollars. I'm betting that Ford and GM are doing the same in the US right now, they just haven't gotten caught yet, or the US Government is in a protectionist mode like they are on a lot of things.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Certainly not to the same degree, and others are offending worse than VAG have. And let's not forget GM waiting a decade to do something about the faulty ignition switches in their cars that killed several people. In my mind, the person or people responsible for that at GM should have to answer to manslaughter charges.

I'm a Ford fan, but I hold the deal with the Pinto fuel tanks against them. Not only did Ford not include the modified fuel filler necks as standard to save about $10 a car, but they even were wanting to also put a fuel cell bladder--similar to modern racing cars--in the fuel tank. That was until the bean counters stepped in. And they should be held to task for manslaughter charges and civil prosecution for medical bills and property damage.

Let's not pretend that VAG are alone in America or the World for fabricating emissions or fuel mileage ratings to cheat car buyers out of money or governments out of tax dollars. I'm betting that Ford and GM are doing the same in the US right now, they just haven't gotten caught yet, or the US Government is in a protectionist mode like they are on a lot of things.

GMs part failure has been traced to at least 5 different problems not all manufacturer error or crap design so that's a non-starter and will be so.
As for Audi/VW it was a group of college kids who found and published the software cheat on private cars. They have since tested almost every system out there and have found ZERO other systems within software to report fake readings. The idea the US govt could cover up to protect US manufacturers is laughable and juvenile. It would be made public before they could even react and the cover up would be worse. Audi got screwed because THEIR engineers came up with the system to get the 3L in their US cars. The smaller engine can barely pass emissions on its own, the 3L isn't even close. And Audi of North America pushed for it in their cars. Any thought that Audi want going to get the worst of the VW spanking is fan boy or delusional thinking.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Redlake27

Apart from Mitsubishi admitting cheating on Japanese microcars, I'm not able to recall which other car manufacturer has been found guilty of fitting cheat devices? I don't believe any have yet.

The difference between the others and VW-Audi is ingenuity v blatant cheating. Just like cooling fuel in F1 allowed teams to squeeze more in the tank (legal) but fitting a hidden tank (BAR) was a cheat.

Audi have contributed hugely to WEC and Le Mans. But the link between the cheating and the reasons for their motorsport marketing programme all come back to the same thing: Promoting Clean Diesel.

They cheated. And they are paying the price. But will bounce back.

Audi will be back, I'm sure. It may be linked to E-Tron. They are excellent marketeers and they also know that a break for a few years and then a comeback with a new technology message is far more impactful than just switching from Diesel to Petrol in successive years.

In the meantime, with Toyota and Porsche being forced to outspend each other on near-F1 budgets, the future of LMP1 needs an urgent review.

The new LMP2 cars set lap times at Sebring that would have split the Audis on the 2012 WEC grid.

Creating a class that combines the best ideas from LMP2+Kers, LMP1-NH and DPi could give us the sustainable, global LMP1 category that could attract OEMs seeking a strong return on investment.

Only the VAG two are/were spending f1 level budgets. Toyota's 75, 80 million is not cheap either but you can get a car to win without putting up 9 figure sums.

[Japanese Samurai]

Japanese Autosport magazine reports the rumor that Nissan will participate in 2018 LM24 LMP1-L class by NRE engine and Team ESM.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Japanese Autosport magazine reports the rumor that Nissan will participate in 2018 LM24 LMP1-L class by NRE engine and Team ESM.

That's big news if it turns out to be true.

[Japanese Samurai]

Sorry for off topic.
According to Chugoku Shimbun (Newspaper in Hiroshima),
Mazda will develop new I6 engine (about 3000cc) for North American market.
It would be difficult to divert for sportscar racing.
http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/local/ne...ategory_id=256

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Sorry for off topic.
According to Chugoku Shimbun (Newspaper in Hiroshima),
Mazda will develop new I6 engine (about 3000cc) for North American market.
It would be difficult to divert for sportscar racing.
http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/local/ne...ategory_id=256

6 in line?
The sound could be fantastic, perhaps the future DPI engine.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Japanese Autosport magazine reports the rumor that Nissan will participate in 2018 LM24 LMP1-L class by NRE engine and Team ESM.

What is an NRE engine if I may ask?

Would be a bit of a surprise given that it would be far cheaper and easier to compete in P2 without ESM building their own car but hey when it comes to privateers P1 the more the better so it would be nice to see. I would be interested to see what ESM are capable of doing when it comes to building a car unless Nissan themselves are building the car.

[Japanese Samurai]

NRE is Nippon Race/Racing Engine.
It is present GT500 engine. (I4, 2 liter turbo)

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

NRE is Nippon Race/Racing Engine.

It is present GT500 engine. (I4, 2 liter turbo)

Thankyou. With the GT500 cars now rumored to having north of 600hp it doesn't lack in the horsepower stakes but one wonders how it would go over 24hrs seeing as though SGT don't race for that long.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by rich07

Thankyou. With the GT500 cars now rumored to having just shy of 700hp it doesn't lack in the horsepower stakes but one wonders how it would go over 24hrs seeing as though SGT don't race for that long.

A little fix, if I would be so bold

The NRE engines do get through the Suzuka 1000 km (5-6 hours) with relatively flew problems, so I don't think a massive amount of work would be needed to make them last 24 hours straight.

[Japanese Samurai]

3 engines could be used during the season until 2016.
The estimated durability was 3,000 km.
However, only 2 engines can be used from this year.
Then the estimated durability is about 4,500 km.
So it need a little more durability.

[J Jay]

And that would handily cover all the running in the week of Le Mans, so in theory the 2017 NREs should be fine for 24hr races.

Not that we'll ever see them in one, but it's nice to dream.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by J Jay

And that would handily cover all the running in the week of Le Mans, so in theory the 2017 NREs should be fine for 24hr races.

Not that we'll ever see them in one, but it's nice to dream.

I don't know, I seem to recall Sam Collins saying something about Nissan wanting to get that engine in an lmp1. And this new info seems to be pretty credible now with esm running Nissan engines and the dpi for the manufacturer.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Nissan back in LMP1 would be really great, and this sounds like a more suitable level for them, dop their toes with ESM with engine deal only.