Test In The West at Phoenix

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

I think the test were a good indication to Toyota and Chevy just how far Honda was ahead of them.

My impression of Toyota and Hondas feelings about the impending engine rules changes is the fact it may be based on a small block Chevy ( reduced in cubic inches of course ). If you take an alum. purpose built small block, strenghten it to be a stressed member of the drive train, provide for a dry sump exterior oil tank, put a flat front cover on it and keep the cubic inches at around 255 to 270 it would make around 650 to 700 hp. If you make the competitors purchase a basic "kit" with block, crank, rods, heads and pistons for a set sum of money then you can allow them to have different builders build the engine for them but at the same time allow creative engineering in the valve train. I would assume that if they did this Toyota and Honda may not care for this spec.

But it sure would be a lot more affordable for the teams, and it would allow for some innovation with the builders, etc....

and thus, I think we would get more competitors back...

The question, however, would be whether AGR, Ganassi, and penske, among others, would stick around under that format of engine rules....

[Kicking-back]

I think they would - it's not like they would have a better offer elsewhere and all of them have their core in IndyCar rather than NASCAR or Sportscar.

[Team Owner]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

But it sure would be a lot more affordable for the teams, and it would allow for some innovation with the builders, etc....

and thus, I think we would get more competitors back...

The question, however, would be whether AGR, Ganassi, and penske, among others, would stick around under that format of engine rules....

Good question ! As far as Andretti Green is concerned when you get what amounts to basically free engines then any additional cost would be prohibitive. The sponsors on the sidepods of their cars are not putting much money into the team as normal sponsors would because of the free engines so it would be interesting to see if they would "up" their commitment so that AGR could purchase engines and have them built and developed.
I think that the new engine kits could be done for around $60,000

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

The sponsors on the sidepods of their cars are not putting much money into the team as normal sponsors would because of the free engines so it would be interesting to see if they would "up" their commitment so that AGR could purchase engines and have them built and developed.
I think that the new engine kits could be done for around $60,000

Regarding the sponsors, can the same be said for any of the other "works" teams?

One would think that the reduced costs would be enough of an incentive for Honda/Toyota to like the engine formula you've outlined? Can you see any downsides to it?

[Team Owner]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Regarding the sponsors, can the same be said for any of the other "works" teams?

One would think that the reduced costs would be enough of an incentive for Honda/Toyota to like the engine formula you've outlined? Can you see any downsides to it?

I know Penske gets a deal on their engines but it's nothing like Hondas deal with AGR. RHL gets a little bit of a deal but I think it still costs about $1.5 mm for each car. Ganassi pays very little but does pay some money.

The problem Honda and Toyota have with this design is the fact that it isn't their design it's a design by someone else that they have no control over. I know Honda bought the Illmor engine but it isn't the same engine now as what they started with. Toyotas engine was based on their off-road truck engine. neither was based on a common engine design and I think that's where the rub would be. They would be having to match wits with other engine builders and having to sell their packages to other engine builders and I;m not sure they want to do that. Both are very secretive as to what they do and this goes against everything they stand for.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

Good question ! As far as Andretti Green is concerned when you get what amounts to basically free engines then any additional cost would be prohibitive. The sponsors on the sidepods of their cars are not putting much money into the team as normal sponsors would because of the free engines so it would be interesting to see if they would "up" their commitment so that AGR could purchase engines and have them built and developed.
I think that the new engine kits could be done for around $60,000

Thanks for confirming what my thoughts were concerning potential cost, Team Owner...

I was thinking $60K-$70K depending on who was doing the builds....

[Team Owner]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Thanks for confirming what my thoughts were concerning potential cost, Team Owner...

I was thinking $60K-$70K depending on who was doing the builds....

I should have made myself more clear. I think the "kits" from the IRL would cost $60,000 and then you would have to pay for them to be built and additional parts like cams etc. I also think that they would be designed to last 1500 miles before needing a rebuild.

[jhansen]

Quote from Team Owner: "They would be having to match wits with other engine builders and having to sell their packages to other engine builders and I;m not sure they want to do that."

And yet Toyota is essentially doing just that in NASCAR at the moment. If the bang for the buck is worth it companies like Toyota will give it a go. It just may not be worth it in the IRL given the amount of exposure that is received.

[Tim Northcutt]

I'm assuming that the rebuilds will run about what they ran for the old IRL engine pacakges....about $10,000-$15,000 per re-build???

[Team Owner]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Quote from Team Owner: "They would be having to match wits with other engine builders and having to sell their packages to other engine builders and I;m not sure they want to do that."

And yet Toyota is essentially doing just that in NASCAR at the moment. If the bang for the buck is worth it companies like Toyota will give it a go. It just may not be worth it in the IRL given the amount of exposure that is received.

True but they did it on their terms by being able to cast their own blocks, get their parts made and assemble them in their own shop. This was contrary to everything that Nascar stood for. Toyota having to purchase these parts from the IRL would be contrary to anything they have ever done on the past. I think Honda would feel the same way.
Tim, I assume that your estimate would be close to what it would cost to get one of these built with the possible exception of inflation costs. I'll place a call to a couple of engine builders I know and ask them to give me an estimate.

[GP Racer]

Toyota seem's to be pretty happy with their Grand Am DP program, and thats a stock block situation also. They use their SUV engine for that program, and it's been fairly successful.

As a matter of fact, the whole GARRA program seems to be working very well in providing cheap engines, and drawing in alot of different engine makers and manufacturers. Right now there are 6 in that series. It could and should work very well here also, and I get the feeling that the IRL would like to move in the same direction, So if Toyota and Honda don't feel its right for them, then maybe Pontiac, Dodge, Ford, BMW, or Infiniti would.

And on the exposure issue, the Indy 500 is still one of the best, if not the best, exposure that a manufacturer can have...

[Hazza]

A Nascar/GARRA engine building ethos would be brilliant, among other things it could allow situations like we have down here in Australia.
Team A (Reigning Champions, Has Great Engines) - Hey! We want somebody to run this new kid we had in the feeder series as our team is full!
Team B (Underdogs, not great engines) - Sure! Give us free engines and we'll take him for 2 years.

Then, Team B moves up the field, and the young chap gets a great go - How cool is that!