Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Machin

I agree... which is why I wouldn't start with an LMP2... I'd start with... wait for it... a Deltawing! (why do all the hard work when most of it has been done for you?)

1, Take a Deltawing.
2, Space out the skinny front wheels on long suspension (a few kg weight increase).
3, Reduce the chassis length. This decreases the weight, increases the torsional ridigity, and moves the weight split further forward.
4, With more weight on the front wheels the rear tyre width can be decreased, and the fronts increased to suite without changing overall vehicle weight. -brake mass is also transferred to the front wheels accordingly. This also has the knock on effect of allowing a wider, more efficient, diffuser (red area in the image below) -because there is more space between the rear wheels.
5, Fit lightweight carbon fibre shrouds around the front wheels. A few kg in total, resulting in an overall car weight matching the original deltawing.

I hope they introduce a new, more restricted fuel consumption, no minimum weight, much freer technical regulations class to allow this sort of battle of ideas. It would be like the CanAm coming back, but with much better fuel economy.

[Machin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The only problem is there's increased drag from the front tyres/wheels, even if they are covered with the carbon fibre shrouds. That's why Bowlby designed the front tyres/wheels to be housed where they are, to reduce drag.

It would be interesting to see how shrouded front wheels, + narrower rear wheels (and hence narrower "upper part" of the wheel arches) and a less restrictive diffuser would compare though wouldn't it....?

[TF110]

Red Bull 'X-cars' from GT5 anyone?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by TF110

Red Bull 'X-cars' from GT5 anyone?

The first time I heard about one of those, my reaction was 'there's the ultimate Le Mans prototype right there.' The performance would need to be toned-down a bit, but I'd love to see something like that.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Machin

It would be interesting to see how shrouded front wheels, + narrower rear wheels (and hence narrower "upper part" of the wheel arches) and a less restrictive diffuser would compare though wouldn't it....?

It would immediately be a whole bunch faster in the corners, and less prone to being mugged in the corners by cars that are hugely faster through the corner.
The Toyota came up from miles behind ran under the Delta and then cut across its nose to knock it off. It was just too slow into and through the corners mainly due to the narrow front track and silly little front wheels.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Machin

It would be interesting to see how shrouded front wheels, + narrower rear wheels (and hence narrower "upper part" of the wheel arches) and a less restrictive diffuser would compare though wouldn't it....?

Come on ACO & FIA, let's do this!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

How dare he drive into a chicane!

Give us a break - it's not even amusing anymore.

[Richard C]

I know this is the Delta Wing thread, but maybe there should be another thread titled "Delta Wing Bashing" and then those that are more interested in doing nothing but pursuing personal vendettas can post there? It might help the signal to noise ratio in this thread.

I am not a fan of the car myself, but I would rather participate in a real discussion than to have to wade through repeated snide remarks that really don't add any value.

Richard

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by Machin

It would be interesting to see how shrouded front wheels, + narrower rear wheels (and hence narrower "upper part" of the wheel arches) and a less restrictive diffuser would compare though wouldn't it....?

During the broadcast, the Speed crew mentioned that just the ACO mandated large rear view mirrors added 5% more drag. You can bet there might be a-bit more aero trimming they could do, but adding larger wheels outboard of the chassis would probably produce way more drag than the mirrors.

[Matt]

i cant wait for the spark 1:43

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by wnut

It would immediately be a whole bunch faster in the corners, and less prone to being mugged in the corners by cars that are hugely faster through the corner.
The Toyota came up from miles behind ran under the Delta and then cut across its nose to knock it off. It was just too slow into and through the corners mainly due to the narrow front track and silly little front wheels.

It certainly wasn't much slower than other LMP2/GT cars in the corners. He held an inside line to allow the factory cars to pass and was most likely running slower because of that. The entire queue of the leaders had been slowed at the entrance to the Curves so it wasn't just the DW that he came up upon from "miles back." His whole aggressive attack was based on how slow all the leaders were going at that point. The DW produced reasonable speed in all areas. Not the fastest, but certainly not the slowest. So if the DW was mugged just because it was too slow, then most of the GT cars and a few LMP2 cars would also be in the same category. Shall they all run unclassified for the rest of the WEC season?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by wnut

It would immediately be a whole bunch faster in the corners, and less prone to being mugged in the corners by cars that are hugely faster through the corner.
The Toyota came up from miles behind ran under the Delta and then cut across its nose to knock it off. It was just too slow into and through the corners mainly due to the narrow front track and silly little front wheels.

Keep in mind the last 40 years of racing car development has been focused on maximizing apex speed. The DW achieves a similar lap time but approaches it more like the cars from the late 60's. One thing the last few decades have done is taken away out-braking duels, which used to be a lot of fun and now you only see them in non-downforce classes.

A field with a mixture of cars that made different trade-offs between corner and straight speed would make for some great racing.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by canam

It would have helped if the Toyota driver had not punted it. So eager to find that last few seconds over 24 hours...those works drivers.

At the point of time of the DW accident, Kaz was not squeezing out the last few seconds but going for track posisiton. All the leaders had been slowed by traffic entering the P Curves and the Toyota tried to Vulch the line of cars.

My problem was: with the DW gone, which Audi did I want to win--cos they all seemed so intent on throwing it away. Nishi's problem OK...but the first chicane tomfoolery by the others. The winner was the one who wasn't stupid.

Some of the Chicane problems were due to Lizard Oil. However McNish has crashed twice in the last two events trying to undercut GT traffic. No oil for those crashes. Maybe it's not Dindo who should be retiring.

dh

[canam]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

At the point of time of the DW accident, Kaz was not squeezing out the last few seconds but going for track posisiton. All the leaders had been slowed by traffic entering the P Curves and the Toyota tried to Vulch the line of cars.
Some of the Chicane problems were due to Lizard Oil. However McNish has crashed twice in the last two events trying to undercut GT traffic. No oil for those crashes. Maybe it's not Dindo who should be retiring.

dh

The first chicane is well know for these issues later on in the race ie. marbles, gravel and oil. These drivers have enormous experience--and would have been briefed by a team with the largest resources in the race. Simple folly on their behalf. I do, however, have more empathy for Nishi.

As for the DW, there is no excuse. Given the Toyota's Hybrid system, he could have waited one more corner--where he could see properly.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Give us a break - it's not even amusing anymore.

Well, wnut does seem to be on some sort of vendetta, since his comments on about page 52 claim the DW design is so bad it will never even get the Le Mans. Since almost every point he stated as a fail there has been proved so completely wrong, he only has this to fall back on.

[gwyllion]

Another great column by Gordon Kirby that deals with the Delta Wing extensively: http://gordonkirby.com/categories/co..._is_no340.html

The plan is to make the whole car "open source". Very cool.

"We hope with the open-source concept we will attract students from all the engineering schools around the world and spark new thought and designs and have a continuing evolution of the revolution. We think what Linux has done can be done in racing."

...

"We're going to publish the entire production design," Bowlby related, "including the computer models of the components, the engineering drawings for the manufacture of those components, plus the parts list, the price structure and suppliers--you name it. The opportunity for teams and suppliers to download those things and either quote against manufacturing those parts, or in the case of a team they might chose to manufacture the parts themselves. Our original plan was for all this to be out there and available."

[lms]

Originally Posted by canam

As for the DW, there is no excuse. Given the Toyota's Hybrid system, he could have waited one more corner--where he could see properly.

yes he should have just slowed down, following the Delta Wing then pass it on a long straight. And every other driver should have done the same if they are unable to see the car properly thats the least they can do.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Machin

It would be interesting to see how shrouded front wheels, + narrower rear wheels (and hence narrower "upper part" of the wheel arches) and a less restrictive diffuser would compare though wouldn't it....?

A less restrictive diffuser would be interesting as the D-Wing is ground effect but don't that doesn't eliminate the drag from the front wheels.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

It would immediately be a whole bunch faster in the corners, and less prone to being mugged in the corners by cars that are hugely faster through the corner.
The Toyota came up from miles behind ran under the Delta and then cut across its nose to knock it off. It was just too slow into and through the corners mainly due to the narrow front track and silly little front wheels.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the D-Wing moved over from the racing line, allowing the faster LMP1 cars past; nothing to do with silly front tyres or narrow track. You'd might like to watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdiUKBymutU

[canam]

Originally Posted by wnut

It would immediately be a whole bunch faster in the corners, and less prone to being mugged in the corners by cars that are hugely faster through the corner.
The Toyota came up from miles behind ran under the Delta and then cut across its nose to knock it off. It was just too slow into and through the corners mainly due to the narrow front track and silly little front wheels.

Did you make that up? I like the part about "came up from miles behind".
From the TV, it looks like they were all bunched up--with DW letting the P1 cars through--before the Toyota decided to try to pass the whole bunch of them and put the DW out of the race. He simply drove him off the track. It is inconceivable to think he didn't see the DW. Had a P2 been on the same piece of road as the DW, the same thing would have happened.

hmmm. I guess you don't like DW. Pretty soon you will be telling us that the DW hit the Toyota!

[DeathOrGlory]

Apparently people are too ticked off about the Deltawing being "The Future™". Well, the future can be anything, really. Even Motoyama said it:"We have really shown what the future of sportscar racing could look like–ultra efficient..."

Emphasis on COULD. It can happen, it cannot. We'll just have to wait and see.

[HJJ]

Interesting read.

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1/

[Maelochs]

Re; Open Source---That had always been part of the plan; DWing LLc reserved the right to approve or reject any suggested design changes, and then would publish those as well. (From the Kirby article: "Having the complete design effectively on a plate means you can also modify the design and submit your design for approval. " (Emphasis added.))

That was (I beleive) a large part of the reason it was originally rejected by IndyCar--IndyCar would have lost all control over the design, and teams wouldn't bother trying to improve it legally) because they would have to share all their development with their rivals.

So the league would have to give up control over the car design (thus losing the ability to make the kinds of downforce changed it made at the last two oval races, which made those races so much better and safer) and the teams would have no reason to try to improve the car legally, which would have led to more cheating and less progress.

The question remains, even if it is "Open Source," who owns the rights to "DeltaWing LLC-Approved" changes to the design, or if that part of the system is even practical now.

Either way, the ideas are out there. Any engineers who want to be really creative in designing a car which might not be able to race anywhere is free to make his or her own.

(Oh, and TY for the link.)

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Interesting read.

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1/

Hear hear!

[Articus]

It really sucks that this car got punted out by Whackajima. Alot of people wanted to see this car finish. Obviously not a certain other japanese manufacturer

just kidding about the toyota joke haha.

but yeah i wanted to see the car finish.