Rosberg vs Hamilton - Page 13

davyboy · 28 May 2013, 15:07 (Ref:3254540)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

I said at season start Hamilton's first target is to match Rosberg, and as the new guy in the team he can count this season as a success if he does that.

If he matches Rosberg this season, he'll beat him next.

Maybe. Maybe Merc will decide to design the 2014 car around Lewis as he struggles to adapt his style to cars that require finesse to deliver results.

**garcon** · 28 May 2013, 15:18 (Ref:3254545)

The car is the unknown variable in that equation, but I think it still holds in general terms. Part of the skillset of a good driver is adaptability.

davyboy · 28 May 2013, 15:24 (Ref:3254546)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

The car is the unknown variable in that equation, but I think it still holds in general terms. Part of the skillset of a good driver is adaptability.

Adaptability hasn't been one of Lewis' strengths unfortunately.

**garcon** · 28 May 2013, 15:28 (Ref:3254548)

No, but it is something that comes with experience for those capable of learning.

jedrinck · 28 May 2013, 16:20 (Ref:3254577)

Quote:

Originally Posted by beau1

Is it at all possible that some people here are over-stating Hamilton abilities?

I remember it was said that he would easily beat Button despite Button being the reigning champion. Now he goes to Mercedes and is doing fairly well against Rosberg but only as well as Schumacher was this time last year. The strange this is that Rosberg is seen as good despite some relability issues; Schumacher had more relabilitility issues at the start of last year yet people have revised this to him being off the pace which was simply not true. Schumacher's results in the first 6 races of 2012 would have equalled Hamilton's this year if it wasn't for those relability issues.

Personally, I think the better Rosberg does then the better Schumacher looked. I don't think Nico is driving any better at this point than he was list time last year. I don't think the Mercedes is any better either. It was only in the second of half of last season that the Mercedes looked a terrible car; before then it seemed much the same as it does now on pace; a podium worthy car with tyre management issues.

Talking about the connections between old team-mates. Where does this leave Alonso? He was beaten by Hamilton in 2007; Rosberg is currently looking good against Lewis, Rosberg was beaten by Webber, Webber scored points for Minardi and Alonso didn't. Hell, Alonso was technically beaten by Tarso Marques so he must be the worst driver on the grid.

A lot of people somehow 'feel' that Hamilton is the fastest and never let qualifying and race results get in the way of that feeling.

**Born Racer** · 28 May 2013, 19:21 (Ref:3254667)

So the conclusion is they're all as bad as each other.

JeremySmith · 29 May 2013, 00:39 (Ref:3254787)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

Maybe. Maybe Merc will decide to design the 2014 car around Lewis as he struggles to adapt his style to cars that require finesse to deliver results.

I rather like this post...

Beryl · 29 May 2013, 03:38 (Ref:3254809)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedrinck

A lot of people somehow 'feel' that Hamilton is the fastest and never let qualifying and race results get in the way of that feeling.

People are stubborn and it's hard for them to change their previously formed opinion, even when presented with new facts. For example, people still considered Raikkonen a better driver than Massa even after Massa beat him, bringing up every possible excuse in the book.

formerf1champ · 29 May 2013, 09:36 (Ref:3254913)

You know, even he drives in reverse for the next 15 years. People will still refer to the 07 season to pump up Hamilton, where he beat* Alonso.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beryl

People are stubborn and it's hard for them to change their previously formed opinion, even when presented with new facts. For example, people still considered Raikkonen a better driver than Massa even after Massa beat him, bringing up every possible excuse in the book.

LOL! Spare me! It's 2013. Raikkonen is better than Massa, and always has been. Will always be.

Raikkonen has one sloppy year, and it negates 10 awesome ones. Some people, hey?

*He actually equalled Alonso for points and wins. Only receiving runner up because of one more second place. Hardly "beating" him.

**garcon** · 29 May 2013, 09:53 (Ref:3254919)

The thing with Kimi is he's so ridiculously talented he doesn't have to work at it. If he actually applied himself the same as, say, Vettel and had the multiple win mentality he'd be challenging Schumacher for WDC wins.

**Born Racer** · 29 May 2013, 12:02 (Ref:3254964)

I dunno. He seems pretty fired-up to me. The punching Perez comments and car body language on those last laps don't look like an uninterested driver.

formerf1champ · 29 May 2013, 12:10 (Ref:3254972)

If Raikkonen didn't deck Hamilton after the 08 Canadian GP, he won't deck anybody.

**garcon** · 29 May 2013, 12:14 (Ref:3254974)

Oh he's certainly not uninterested. On track he'll race as hard as anybody. He just doesn't bother doing all the extra graft outside race weekends.

**Bononi** · 29 May 2013, 12:48 (Ref:3254991)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

The thing with Kimi is he's so ridiculously talented he doesn't have to work at it. If he actually applied himself the same as, say, Vettel and had the multiple win mentality he'd be challenging Schumacher for WDC wins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

Oh he's certainly not uninterested. On track he'll race as hard as anybody. He just doesn't bother doing all the extra graft outside race weekends.

Exactly.

Beryl · 29 May 2013, 18:14 (Ref:3255099)

Quote:

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

LOL! Spare me! It's 2013. Raikkonen is better than Massa, and always has been. Will always be.

Raikkonen has one sloppy year, and it negates 10 awesome ones. Some people, hey?

Not in 2013, but from before the accident. Massa outqualified and outscored Raikkonen over their two and a half years together. Raikkonen never looked clearly superior (over a prolonged period, not single races) in their time together as teammates.

Yet, you're proving my point. Massa looked every bit as good as Kimi and beat him fair a square, and yet the excuses still come.

**chunterer** · 29 May 2013, 20:31 (Ref:3255174)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beryl

Not in 2013, but from before the accident. Massa outqualified and outscored Raikkonen over their two and a half years together. Raikkonen never looked clearly superior (over a prolonged period, not single races) in their time together as teammates.

Yet, you're proving my point. Massa looked every bit as good as Kimi and beat him fair a square, and yet the excuses still come.

Have to say the statistic bare this out, and it was unexpected in the most part but how much much did inner Maranello politics have a bearing on all of this?

All Kimi needs is a decent car and he can do the rest on pure driving talent, Massa on the other hand is a more sensitive soul who probably has a much thinner skin!

Back on topic though, Nico and Lewis are close enough for me to still think that all thing being equal once Lewis hits the sweet spot i.e. gets the car under him that he really likes), Nico will struggle to stay with him, but I'm not convinced Lewis will get himself into the position to do that this year and knowing how fickle F1 politics and team managers are, if Nico continues to produce the goods, Lewis may quickly find he's the 'other' driver as long as he's a Mercedes driver.

formerf1champ · 30 May 2013, 09:29 (Ref:3255365)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beryl

Not in 2013, but from before the accident.

I meant "It's 2013. Get back in the DeLorean."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beryl

Massa outqualified and outscored Raikkonen over their two and a half years together. Raikkonen never looked clearly superior (over a prolonged period, not single races) in their time together as teammates.

Well that's conclusive then, isn't it? Never mind that Raikkonen was clearly better than everyone from the period he won the 07 French GP to the 08 Spanish GP, let alone Massa. I like the use of "outscored Raikkonen over their two and a half years together." Conveniently ignoring one hugely significant stat.

I've also noticed you've suffered the same disease militant Senna fans have, in that qualifying comparisons are known off by heart. But you ask them who was the outright fastest during the race, who set he faster/fastest lap in the race? (the bit that counts) All of a sudden, some type of amnesia sets in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beryl

Yet, you're proving my point. Massa looked every bit as good as Kimi and beat him fair a square, and yet the excuses still come.

Yeah, I'm definitely proving your point. I come up with meaningless stats, like points scored over a number of years. Also, of all the criterion to judge a driver, I choose to focus on one of the less significant, qualifying. On it's own, qualifying is one of the easier skills to execute. Go as hard as you can, on a clear track, just for one lap. Never mind that qualifying was seen so insignificant, the FIA meddled with it in attempt to produce a more interesting race. I know one of the races Raikkonen won in 08, he qualified second behind Massa. He had more fuel in the tank and was ale to pit later ad assume his rightful position. Raikkonen often went with a heavier tank.

Also, note the first part of chunterer's post.

P.S. Mods, that's my last one. Don't delete it. I'm done.

Beryl · 30 May 2013, 19:00 (Ref:3255610)

Quote:

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Well that's conclusive then, isn't it? Never mind that Raikkonen was clearly better than everyone from the period he won the 07 French GP to the 08 Spanish GP, let alone Massa. I like the use of "outscored Raikkonen over their two and a half years together." Conveniently ignoring one hugely significant stat.

I've also noticed you've suffered the same disease militant Senna fans have, in that qualifying comparisons are known off by heart. But you ask them who was the outright fastest during the race, who set he faster/fastest lap in the race? (the bit that counts) All of a sudden, some type of amnesia sets in.

Fastest laps? Seriously? Do you really believe Webber was faster in races than Vettel in 2011? Fastest laps is the most misleading stat there is in F1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Yeah, I'm definitely proving your point. I come up with meaningless stats, like points scored over a number of years. Also, of all the criterion to judge a driver, I choose to focus on one of the less significant, qualifying. On it's own, qualifying is one of the easier skills to execute. Go as hard as you can, on a clear track, just for one lap. Never mind that qualifying was seen so insignificant, the FIA meddled with it in attempt to produce a more interesting race. I know one of the races Raikkonen won in 08, he qualified second behind Massa. He had more fuel in the tank and was ale to pit later ad assume his rightful position. Raikkonen often went with a heavier tank.

Fuel correction is something to be taken into account, but more often than not Massa was ahead fuel corrected as well.

And if you call qualifying scores and points scored (especially for drivers at the sharp end of the field) meaningless stats, I don't know what I can say. Those stats can be misleading, you have to take into account how we arrived at those stats, but in this case it tells the story quite well. It's quite clear you have a bias on the subject and you are twisting whatever you can to suit yourself.

But we are off topic, that is my last post on the subject.

Dutton · 30 May 2013, 19:06 (Ref:3255617)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beryl

Not in 2013, but from before the accident. Massa outqualified and outscored Raikkonen over their two and a half years together. Raikkonen never looked clearly superior (over a prolonged period, not single races) in their time together as teammates.

Yet, you're proving my point. Massa looked every bit as good as Kimi and beat him fair a square, and yet the excuses still come.

I think it was broadly even between them over the years as a whole. A lot of the time there was nothing in it; a lot of the time Massa out-did him.

Kimi did win a championship, though. He kinda backed into it, really, but in the end he got it. That has to count for something.

davyboy · 31 May 2013, 13:19 (Ref:3255985)

For those of us that are Autosport subscribers, you can look at Jonathan Noble's take here on exactly what we're discussing in this thread. His evidenced based conclusion, having spoken to Rosberg, Brawn and Hamilton, is that Rosberg is unchanged from previous years, that Hamilton expected him to be a formidable team mate... and that Schumacher was actually a lot faster in 2012 than people gave him credit for.

**Bononi** · 31 May 2013, 14:39 (Ref:3256016)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

For those of us that are Autosport subscribers, you can look at Jonathan Noble's take here on exactly what we're discussing in this thread. His evidenced based conclusion, having spoken to Rosberg, Brawn and Hamilton, is that Rosberg is unchanged from previous years, that Hamilton expected him to be a formidable team mate... and that Schumacher was actually a lot faster in 2012 than people gave him credit for.

That's a relief.

davyboy · 31 May 2013, 15:34 (Ref:3256038)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

That's a relief.

Yes indeed. We can breathe a collective sigh of relief now that it has been confirmed that Michael Schumacher was actually fast after all

Last2LiftOff · 31 May 2013, 15:38 (Ref:3256040)

(Dammit, coffee all over the keyboard on that one Davy)

**Bononi** · 31 May 2013, 16:40 (Ref:3256069)

The old man can still kick ass !

formerf1champ · 1 Jun 2013, 00:43 (Ref:3256232)

Hmmm, conclusive evidence there by Noble from davyboy. Conclusive evidence of one, two, or all three of the following...

1) Qualifying is a lesser indicator in which to judge drivers.

2) Rosberg was a better racing driver the Schumacher.

3) Schumacher should participate in hillclimbs.

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