[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[KSM86]

damn i wish there was a round down here in Australia.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by KSM86

damn i wish there was a round down here in Australia.

Oh have you moved back from Norway?

[deggis]

Frédéric Henry-Biaubaud, the ILMC general manager said: [...] In 2013 we’ll be looking at other continents. We are looking at South America, India and Russia, in no particular order. The calendar could be a bit larger, but not too large. One or two extra races would be good.

http://www.planetlemans.com/2011/06/...2-and-further/

[helgi]

As a sportscar racing fan I really don't know what to think. On the one hand, WEC should have the very best tracks in the calendar. Sebring, Spa etc. But from the other hand, you just can't imagine how it's important for sportscar racing fans here in Russia to have an opportunity to watch the championship live. Pity, but after Smolensk failed to invite even GT3 our chances are too small. Of course, it's not Smolensk that should be in WEC calendar, but Moscow Raceway. I know, 99,9% of fans will prefer a second US event or smth. in Europe. But LMS will never come to Russia, and we'll have no other chance to watch sportscarracing at it's best. Its difficult (and maybe too early) to judge.

[joeb]

Apparently Autosport is saying that the Box 56 cars will be allowed to run in the other WEC races next year. So we may see the GreenGT and Courage on track as well as the Deltashwing.

[KSM86]

Originally Posted by Andy77

Oh have you moved back from Norway?

yeah mate moved back home to sydney. although ill go back with the mrs to visit her family next year in june via Le Man

[dsegs]

Originally Posted by joeb

Apparently Autosport is saying that the Box 56 cars will be allowed to run in the other WEC races next year. So we may see the GreenGT and Courage on track as well as the Deltashwing.

Good, I'm really curious about the GreenGT. If it will look anything like the renderings it will be awesome!

[Simmi]

Mazda closing in on WEC/LM24 LMP2 programme with McDreamy. Interesting that this is what it took for Mazda to come back but fair enough.

Would be nice to see one car under the 'Dempsey Racing' banner and then another car with a more stellar line-up.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...fort-for-2012/

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Mazda closing in on WEC/LM24 LMP2 programme with McDreamy. Interesting that this is what it took for Mazda to come back but fair enough.

Would be nice to see one car under the 'Dempsey Racing' banner and then another car with a more stellar line-up.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...fort-for-2012/

Another article, this from engineering, has some interesting information on the future of Mazda in sports car racing, including a possible but unlikely diesel program.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...car-programme/

Whatever happens, it looks like the RX-8 Grand Am program is reaching its end.

[AGD]

I'm assuming the SKYACTIV-D diesel engine would be an LMP2 application. A diesel engine in LMP2 could be interesting, although I don't know how the regs would handle it. Also, the Racecar Engineering article has a quote saying they are exploring GT use for the diesel engine. I assume that must be in Grand Am or something?

What would be the better option: a SKYACTIV 4 cyl. petrol turbo LMP2 engine or a SKYACTIV-D turbo diesel for LMP2? I guess it's hard to say, but I do wonder if a 4 cyl. petrol turbo would be wise given the problems of the HPD. Doubly troublesome would be the fact that I'm guessing it won't be some sort of Super GT or GTE type engine, but instead a true street based engine.

[deggis]

Diesel is forbidden in LMP2. They're talking about P1 or then planning to send couple of nice letters to ACO.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by deggis

Diesel is forbidden in LMP2. They're talking about P1 or then planning to send couple of nice letters to ACO.

Hmm, perhaps then the stock block diesel is for LMP1 (MZR-R replacement?) and the stock block petrol is for LMP2?

I'm not so sure if a small 4 cyl. stock block diesel would contend against Audis and Peugeots. I have to assume it is for LMP2, but as you say, that may require some friendly letters.

[deggis]

Interestingly, in the pre-2011 P2 regs production diesels were allowed...

[Asa]

Actually, I have been thinking how WEC can work as a Word Endurance Tour, similar to the ATP Tour in tennis.

Every circuit/promoter can bid for events throughout the year, with the best events (Le Mans, Petit, Sebring...etc) being the "Grand Slams". Then the smaller and shorter events will grant fewer points and the smallest events can be organized concurrently, then it will be up to the competitors to choose which ones they attend.

So say Le Mans awards 240 points to the winner, Petit and Sebring can award 120 points, Spa and Silverstone 6 hours award 60 points... etc.

For example, Silverstone 6 hours and Laguna Seca 6 hours clashes in September, then Peugeot may decide racing at Silverstone is better for its marketing while Audi needs US exposure, then they can go and race separately and both earn 60 points from their races.

But the "Grand Slams" races will not have conflicting events and everyone must take part in those if they want to win the titles.

As long as the WEC limit the number of points awarding races to maybe 10, and the 6 hours races are spread equally between Europe and America, I think it can work.

Sample WEC calendar:
1. Sebring 120 points
2= Long Beach 40 points
2= Paul Ricard 40 points
3. Spa 60 points
4. Le Mans 240 points
5= Imola 60 points
5= Lime Rock Park 60 points
6= Laguna Seca 60 points
6= Silverstone 60 points
7. Petit Le Mans 120 points
8. Zhuhai, China 60 points.

So teams can choose which 60 points events to tackle on either side of the pond, depending on their own preference.

[TWK]

Long Beach??? Lime Rock??? You can't be serious. Beyond the obvious (terrible tracks for drivers, teams, and (Long Beach) spectators, neither would come close to being FIA approved for such a race.

Here's another problem with that scenario: Tennis doesn't have a "world championship" based on performance over a season. (Neither does golf.) So competitors do mix and match, skipping some rounds. The tour(s) likes a minimum schedule (to support event marketing). Those sports have a "ranking,"...big difference. To have a champion, you simply can't pick and chose your events.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TWK

Long Beach??? Lime Rock??? You can't be serious. Beyond the obvious (terrible tracks for drivers, teams, and (Long Beach) spectators, neither would come close to being FIA approved for such a race.

If you were referring to licenses, both are Grade 2 circuits. That wouldn't be a problem but obviously in practice there would be problems, so ACO would never even present a calendar with those tracks to WMSC.

[Bonanza]

Originally Posted by Asa

Actually, I have been thinking how WEC can work as a Word Endurance Tour, similar to the ATP Tour in tennis.

Every circuit/promoter can bid for events throughout the year, with the best events (Le Mans, Petit, Sebring...etc) being the "Grand Slams". Then the smaller and shorter events will grant fewer points and the smallest events can be organized concurrently, then it will be up to the competitors to choose which ones they attend.

So say Le Mans awards 240 points to the winner, Petit and Sebring can award 120 points, Spa and Silverstone 6 hours award 60 points... etc.

For example, Silverstone 6 hours and Laguna Seca 6 hours clashes in September, then Peugeot may decide racing at Silverstone is better for its marketing while Audi needs US exposure, then they can go and race separately and both earn 60 points from their races.

But the "Grand Slams" races will not have conflicting events and everyone must take part in those if they want to win the titles.

As long as the WEC limit the number of points awarding races to maybe 10, and the 6 hours races are spread equally between Europe and America, I think it can work.

Sample WEC calendar:
1. Sebring 120 points
2= Long Beach 40 points
2= Paul Ricard 40 points
3. Spa 60 points
4. Le Mans 240 points
5= Imola 60 points
5= Lime Rock Park 60 points
6= Laguna Seca 60 points
6= Silverstone 60 points
7. Petit Le Mans 120 points
8. Zhuhai, China 60 points.

So teams can choose which 60 points events to tackle on either side of the pond, depending on their own preference.

unecessarily complicated. And where's the fun in going to a race with audi if there is no peugeot, and vice versa?

[KA]

Originally Posted by Asa

Actually, I have been thinking how WEC can work as a Word Endurance Tour, similar to the ATP Tour in tennis.

Every circuit/promoter can bid for events throughout the year, with the best events (Le Mans, Petit, Sebring...etc) being the "Grand Slams". Then the smaller and shorter events will grant fewer points and the smallest events can be organized concurrently, then it will be up to the competitors to choose which ones they attend.

So say Le Mans awards 240 points to the winner, Petit and Sebring can award 120 points, Spa and Silverstone 6 hours award 60 points... etc.

For example, Silverstone 6 hours and Laguna Seca 6 hours clashes in September, then Peugeot may decide racing at Silverstone is better for its marketing while Audi needs US exposure, then they can go and race separately and both earn 60 points from their races.

But the "Grand Slams" races will not have conflicting events and everyone must take part in those if they want to win the titles.

As long as the WEC limit the number of points awarding races to maybe 10, and the 6 hours races are spread equally between Europe and America, I think it can work.

This reminds me of the way the European Rally Championship was run back in the 70's/80's, when it had a stupidly long calendar (40+ events) that no-one could reasonably run.

As a result, it adopted pretty much the idea you're suggesting, with each event being awarded a co-efficient of 1-4 that your points score would be multiplied by for the championship.

What was the outcome? Poor entries on many of the lower-scoring less popular events, and an almost incomprehensible championship table, with championship positions 'fought over' by drivers who in reality had barely competed against each other all year, and the final results distorted with points scored by local drivers who did well on their 'home' event but never appeared anywhere else.

End result, a title that pretty much no-one cared about.

I suspect that's how this idea would turn out- Peugeot and Audi etc effectively turning it into a 3/4-race championship by fielding full-strength teams for Sebring, Le Mans and PLM while either sitting most of the others out, or maybe sending just token single-car entries to beat up on a few privateers at the low-scoring races if and when they needed to regain some ground in the league table after a poor result at one of the 'grand-slams'....

[Speed-King]

France's 2nd tier rally championship is still run like that today...

I think this would have been a decent solution if for some reason a proper worldwide series wasn't feasible, e.g. to help ALMS and LMS survive, but that doesn't seem to be part of the ACOs considerations.

[courageous]

it is an interesting idea to consider for maybe a "world privateer cup" (give Intersport, Dyson, ASM & Pescarolo a title to fight over) - in the same way Porsche has a championship for anyone in the world who drives one of their cars or the BRDC star.

Neither ALMS nor the potential future LMS has the kudos to command an auto LM entry, but a combined cup might?


But the World title has to be fought out by the same teams on the same tracks together.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Asa

Actually, I have been thinking how WEC can work as a Word Endurance Tour, similar to the ATP Tour in tennis.

Every circuit/promoter can bid for events throughout the year, with the best events (Le Mans, Petit, Sebring...etc) being the "Grand Slams". Then the smaller and shorter events will grant fewer points and the smallest events can be organized concurrently, then it will be up to the competitors to choose which ones they attend.

So say Le Mans awards 240 points to the winner, Petit and Sebring can award 120 points, Spa and Silverstone 6 hours award 60 points... etc.

For example, Silverstone 6 hours and Laguna Seca 6 hours clashes in September, then Peugeot may decide racing at Silverstone is better for its marketing while Audi needs US exposure, then they can go and race separately and both earn 60 points from their races.

But the "Grand Slams" races will not have conflicting events and everyone must take part in those if they want to win the titles.

As long as the WEC limit the number of points awarding races to maybe 10, and the 6 hours races are spread equally between Europe and America, I think it can work.

Sample WEC calendar:
1. Sebring 120 points
2= Long Beach 40 points
2= Paul Ricard 40 points
3. Spa 60 points
4. Le Mans 240 points
5= Imola 60 points
5= Lime Rock Park 60 points
6= Laguna Seca 60 points
6= Silverstone 60 points
7. Petit Le Mans 120 points
8. Zhuhai, China 60 points.

So teams can choose which 60 points events to tackle on either side of the pond, depending on their own preference.

Way back in the early 80s an approach like this was favoured by Bernie Ecclestone for how F1 should be run - i.e. a big calendar with some races that all championship entrants need to run (in 2012 WEC terms, say Sebring, Spa, Le Mans, Silverstone, Zhuhai) and then cherry pick a number of the rest and judge the title on number of best results.

It didn't happen then, and while I can see the appeal of the approach I don't see there being the strength in depth to be able to bring this off. I guess we came close in seasons like 1982, when there was a separate European Endurance title as well as the WEC (not forgetting IMSA of course) but it's worth remembering that this was pretty short lived overall too.

[Asa]

My point is that right now, the WEC seems to be killing LMS and ALMS. Scott Atherton said already that a World Championship with a strong regional series is not the way he wants things to go.

In tennis we don't have a world champion, but we have world ranking and it effectively means world champion. Nobody has a problem to say that Rafael Nadal is the best player in the world today.

In tennis, we have the Monaco Open and Barcelona Open. Of the 4 top ranked players, only Rafael Nadal played in it, yet the stands were full.

Tennis is mostly about how many Grand Slams a player has won, this is similar in sportscar racing. We also count how many Le Mans races Audi and Peugeot and others have won.

Last year Peugeot won the ILMC but Audi dominated Le Mans. Which title matters more? I think we know.

The idea should be to build up more events like Le Mans around the world until we have 3 or 4 big races like tennis has in its 4 Grand Slams with a number of smaller but sustainable events.

Smaller events also allow smaller manufacturers and/or privateer teams to win races and keep their sponsors happy and interested. In the WEC, only one can win. You will end up like F1 with many manufacturers pulling out because of a lack of results.

I think in the near future, when more manufacturers come in to Le Mans racing, like Toyota, Mazda and whoever else (hopefully Maserati with an LMP1 designed by Aldo Costa), there will come a time when each race will have a strong enough field to provide the strength in depth that will help the small events to become profitable.

We could see Audi racing against Toyota/Lexus at Laguna Seca then a week later Peugeot taking on Honda in Brazil.

[AGD]

The LMS is already going their own way separate from the WEC/ILMC. I think they want to be separate. There are issues about scheduling, TV rights, and so forth that make multi-series races hard to coordinate. The ALMS seems upset about not being the king of the hill anymore in sports car racing, but the writing was on the wall as far as they are concerned. There's still hope for the regional series as not everyone will want to do a full WEC calendar, but one can't expect full grids of LMP1s with that. They will have to adjust their standards and maybe adopt different rules (maybe the ALMS could open their doors to older, out of spec LMP1s that perhaps can be cheap to purchase for a privateer, etc.). Maybe they can make a niche for themselves like IMSA GTP did if/when the ACO adopts a fuel consumption spec in 2014. Maybe they can create a hybrid GT class that allows things like the Porsche 918 RSR and the rumored hybrid Ford GT if the ACO drags their feet in that regard.

As for the privateers, I believe there will be a privateers cup in the WEC. I forget the name and who is eligible, but it seems that they will have something to race for. It's hard to say what exactly will be on the WEC schedule next year, but most of the races should be the historically top endurance races that the ACO has the opportunity to race at: Le Mans, Sebring, Spa probably, and Silverstone probably. Petit Le Mans will be left off probably (if not next year, at some point in the future). That's a shame as it has shown that it can be a "grand slam" type race, but oh well. The manufacturers are really driving the WEC and they want to be in places like China, South America, India, etc. Maybe a race in one of those markets will become a classic. I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

Finally, the manufacturers want to race against each other. Acura, for example, wasn't interested in racing against Peugeot and Audi twice a year, they wanted to compete against them all year long. It can't be justified to spend a lot of money to end up cherry picking and racing against a bunch of privateers. They want to race against each other and I think most of the OEMs want to race in the same markets. I think North America/United States is really one of the few tricky markets as some OEMs really want to race there and some (Peugeot) really don't. Perhaps Japan is another like that.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Asa

In the WEC, only one can win. You will end up like F1 with many manufacturers pulling out because of a lack of results.

Results were one factor but BMW, Toyota and Honda's withdrawals had much more to do with the costs and the economic situation in 2008/2009.

We could see Audi racing against Toyota/Lexus at Laguna Seca then a week later Peugeot taking on Honda in Brazil.

Sounds so much better than Audi, Toyota, Peugeot and Honda racing against each other at Laguna Seca and then a week later Audi, Toyota, Peugeot and Honda taking on each other again in Brazil...

[Asa]

Originally Posted by deggis

Results were one factor but BMW, Toyota and Honda's withdrawals had much more to do with the costs and the economic situation in 2008/2009.

You don't get that in sportscar racing? Recession hits every now and then it is a fact of life. Every time a recession hit, the bean counters will come along and tell the race team boss: you are downsized because you are a loser.

Originally Posted by deggis

Sounds so much better than Audi, Toyota, Peugeot and Honda racing against each other at Laguna Seca and then a week later Audi, Toyota, Peugeot and Honda taking on each other again in Brazil...

They may not meet each other in every round in my suggestion, but they do meet 3 or 4 times a year at the Slams. You want the big teams to meet every race at WEC and ONLY at WEC, soon enough they will decide that losing all the time is not so much fun and be force to quit by the bean counters.

You get your one or two years of Toyota, Audi, Peugeot, Aston Martin etc racing against each other regularly. Then they will leave because they have nothing to show. It has happened so many times in sportscar history.

Smaller concurrent events allow them to win and tell the bean counters that they are not losers. They just won this race and next year they will win Le Mans or whatever Slam. Or the year after.