Marshals input to race licence?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Greem

Also, I remember seeing something on telly a few years back which showed a driver's eye movements while tanking it round a circuit (I can't remember which driver, but it was in an F3 car I think). Where they were looking did not correspond to where you might have expected them to, as their eyes were at least half a turn ahead of their track position for a good part of the lap. Must ask the wife if she can recall what programme it was on...

nahrain Karthikayan in a f3 car at mallory

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

As for missing signals to drivers, these are normally on the start line and start lines generally fall before a corner so you are focused on the corner and not the start line signal which is often obscured by armco and fencing.

Signals to drivers (black, black/white, black/orange and penalties) are shown by the Chief Flag. Therefore this will always (as far as I know!) be on the finish line, not the start line or anywhere else.

Most drivers, most of the time, (I know there are exceptions who we happily wave at as they sheepishly circulate one more time) are well aware when they have taken the chequered and beaten the guy next to them, so I am not sure what the excuse is for missing all the other flags or penalties in this area? I do sometime wonder is "selective" sight plays a part. I think it is also fair to note that most drivers know where the finish line is.

Nina tells me that she has a habit of checking dials, then Chief Flag, or vica versa dependant on the track, and she does this every lap she can in case she has a mechanical or black and needs to know, or the chequered or last lap board is out.

There is an awkward one on the Silverstone Arena though, the Finish Line, and therefore Chief Flag is almost on the exit of Club, so not only is it difficult for Chief Flag to see what is coming, but it must be hellishly difficult for a driver to see a signal here. Be interested to hear from drivers with experience of this..

[RCMADD]

i really cannot understand why he took the key??

it was last lap... car was in the gravel.... who the heck can nick it?

and anyway.. in that situation.. snatch would have been done with him in the car.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Signals to drivers (black, black/white, black/orange and penalties) are shown by the Chief Flag. Therefore this will always (as far as I know!) be on the finish line, not the start line or anywhere else. ........

.......

the BB seems to refer mainly to start/finish line and doesn't seem to be explicit about the location for showing the B, B/W and B/O from ...... however the FIA regs do have a bit which says "these flags may also be displayed at places other than the start line should the Clerk of the Course deem this necessary".


ho hum

Dave

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by deley

"these flags may also be displayed at places other than the start line should the Clerk of the Course deem this necessary".

Just like bikes do! (Well, BSB does!)

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deley

the BB seems to refer mainly to start/finish line and doesn't seem to be explicit about the location for showing the B, B/W and B/O from ...... however the FIA regs do have a bit which says "these flags may also be displayed at places other than the start line should the Clerk of the Course deem this necessary".


ho hum

Dave

Yes quite, I have just looked it up and the nearest is 5.1.1 on page 263 of the current Blur Book. In a nustshell it says chequered on finish line. However for the rest of the "unique" flags it simply sates that the CoC must have them and they must be under his direct control. In normal circumstances ( I have never seen it differ) this responsibility is handed to Chief flag - who is on the finish line!

Not seen the FIA regs. Just for info - where do you find FIA regs?

With Dave's wise words I retract my earlier statement, and simply say that under normal circumstances these flags are shown at the finish line. I have never yet seen an instance when they are not....but I am sure soemone will find one.... I think it is fair to assume if you are a driver this is where they will be unless specifically told otherwise.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Signals to drivers (black, black/white, black/orange and penalties) are shown by the Chief Flag. Therefore this will always (as far as I know!) be on the finish line, not the start line or anywhere else.

How many circuits have the start and finish line in different places?

[Startline Ed]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

How many circuits have the start and finish line in different places?

Off the top of my head, I believe Donington and Silverstone.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by RCMADD

i really cannot understand why he took the key??

it was last lap... car was in the gravel.... who the heck can nick it?

You'd be surprised how often I've been to a car where the driver has helpfully put the handbrake on. On one occasion there were only two wheels on it. In stressful situations drivers do what is automatic and it's our job to try to second guess that. However I do think that the 'one day on the bank each year and especially as part of the ARDS test' would be a very worthwhile rule. The drivers get to understand what we do and how the meeting runs and we get useful feedback from their perspective.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Startline Ed

Off the top of my head, I believe Donington and Silverstone.

Also Mallory I think....from memory - but I am old and infirm so this may be wrong...

[Charlyw001]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Yes quite, I have just looked it up and the nearest is 5.1.1 on page 263 of the current Blur Book. In a nustshell it says chequered on finish line. However for the rest of the "unique" flags it simply sates that the CoC must have them and they must be under his direct control. In normal circumstances ( I have never seen it differ) this responsibility is handed to Chief flag - who is on the finish line!

Not seen the FIA regs. Just for info - where do you find FIA regs?

With Dave's wise words I retract my earlier statement, and simply say that under normal circumstances these flags are shown at the finish line. I have never yet seen an instance when they are not....but I am sure soemone will find one.... I think it is fair to assume if you are a driver this is where they will be unless specifically told otherwise.

If you thought the blue book makes good reading then the FIA ones make "War and Peace" seem like mr men books or if you don't want to search them in sub sections you could spend £80 something on the FIA regulations book to read with your cocoa

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regul...rtingCode.aspx

Charlotte

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Also Mallory I think....from memory - but I am old and infirm so this may be wrong...

Mallory is the same iirc

i have to agree with your previous comments regarding the boards being at the finish line.


If drivers miss them at rockingham they have an excuse but every other circuit i personally don't think theres any excuse for missing a board/flag 3 times.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Startline Ed

Off the top of my head, I believe Donington and Silverstone.

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Also Mallory I think....from memory - but I am old and infirm so this may be wrong...

Just checked my video from Saturday and Silverstone finish and start are the same although they do a repeater chequered on the left just before Copse. Mallory start/finish is the same place and I'm pretty sure Donington is as well although I haven't been there since long before the scorched earth policy took place.

[Tal Aras]

On the subject of drivers in the gravel for the first time, I've often wondered why our training days couldn't include a practical session on recovering vehicles from gravel (both after race and live snatch where relevant). Drivers could be invited to take part and get the experience of being pushed/pulled out.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Just checked my video from Saturday and Silverstone finish and start are the same although they do a repeater chequered on the left just before Copse. Mallory start/finish is the same place and I'm pretty sure Donington is as well although I haven't been there since long before the scorched earth policy took place.

Nina and I were Startline for Sat and Sunday. So we gridded you up and it was great to watch you racing - damn fine show! Great weekend! Brilliant racing Tim.

The Start (Pole) is just before the gantry with the lights on.

This is row number 1 on a 2x2 grid.

The finish is just after Woodcote Apex. Row 11 in fact. We know - we walked/ran up and down it enough times in the two days.

(The only exception was the Handicap race which was started way back at the Finish line for reasons of making it easier to start it. So pole for this was row 11)

There is a repeater chequer flag on the right a tad after the bridge, and another, I believe, just before Copse. I think the mistake you are making is assuming the first repeater under the gantry is the Finish line. It isn't, by that time you are about 100 yards or more past the actual finish line.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Tal Aras

On the subject of drivers in the gravel for the first time, I've often wondered why our training days couldn't include a practical session on recovering vehicles from gravel (both after race and live snatch where relevant). Drivers could be invited to take part and get the experience of being pushed/pulled out.

Because we'd break their towing eyes.....

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Tal Aras

On the subject of drivers in the gravel for the first time, I've often wondered why our training days couldn't include a practical session on recovering vehicles from gravel (both after race and live snatch where relevant). Drivers could be invited to take part and get the experience of being pushed/pulled out.

do you recover out of gravel with driver in car? would have thought that was highly risky (for the driver) and a H&S no-no

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

How many circuits have the start and finish line in different places?

The club circuit at Cadwell is one example (and by some margin)

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

do you recover out of gravel with driver in car? would have thought that was highly risky (for the driver) and a H&S no-no

depends..

@ Brands, snatch to safer location under local yellow. Driver is usually out, sometimes it is easier if the driver stays in so that there is some steering as the car is dragged. Problems have recently arisen with drivers who fail to see all the relevant flags and T bone the car in the gravel (see MR2/MX5 issue a few weeks back)

Occasionaly snatch back to track under safety car. (JCB not allowed on a "live" track).
Saloons / Sports driver in car usually if going back on track.

Single seater drivers never in car since the snatch is normally a lift rather than a drag.
But putting a single seater driver back in and doing his belts up is not a situation that most marshals enjoy. Nor apparently did the driver. Despite safety cars, putting an F3 back on the racing line and reinstalling a driver is not something I wish to see done ever again.

[Steve Fox]

I did my ARDS fifteen or more years ago as part of a course, at the time there was plenty of laughs that it was actually impossible to fail, I still use the surface change flag / Spanish race winner joke to this day. (which, iirc was a paraphrase of one of the questions) The point is that there should be questions to check the understanding of race day, that should include how to go through scrutineering, what to do if you get into difficulties out on the circuit, what the officials all do, what should happen if you end up in the gravel, there must be 30 questions that I didn't know the answer to the first time I raced at a circuit and I'd done a week long course!
It would be hard to set those kind of questions though, I've been racing for years, just started Marshaling and so I would struggle to think of the kind of questions that would help someone starting out, maybe that should just be part of the ARDS day, not just driving round a few cones, but a proper sit down lecture.
Once a novice has learned which way round the circuit they should drive then they should do a days Marshaling, that would be an eye opener for many.

[lucky scarf]

At the CSCC meeting at Anglesey earlier in the month on the saturday we had a driver doing a full day on the bank. Both the driver and the marshal paired with him learnt how things can be seen from each others perspective and overall days such as that can only benefit both parties.

[bludvl_x19]

Down here in the Great Southern Land, there is a requirement for any driver wishing to upgrade from their Club level licence to a National one, to complete a day out on a flagpoint, actually flagging. From the drivers that I have talked to after doing this, they have found the day most helpful; the people on the post enjoy it too because they have a captive audience to share their knowledge with, and a (usually) willing participant to hear it. But the driver will hear things that they never knew goes on, like clearing a track, how observable the cars are, different procedures etc.

Then they go and forget it next time their helmet goes on and squeezes all the blood from their brain

[MacGWC]

I think Dead Squirrel's idea of extending the ARDS course to include some of the basics about how and where to park a "dead car" if at all possible and how to help the marshals do their job if their vehicle ends up in the kitty litter is a good idea and I will raise it at the next meeting of the ABMRC. Maybe it is time for a fresh look at what the ARDS course includes.

Beyond the ARDS course, the problems caused at Donington are those which should be dealt with by the Assistant or Deputy Clerk of the Course at the new drivers' briefing - but was this a new driver or someone who had simply forgotten what he had been told.

For the races where I am C of C currently, we are at a new circuit most weekends and drivers' briefings at each race meeting are mandatory. It is also the case that we are running with Le Mans Cars or German DTM where we run to their timetable, not ours. I always make the point that any driver who causes practice or qualifying to be interrupted causes all the other drivers trouble, since it is most unlkely we will be allowed the extra time to complete the session. So, act sensibly and park safely if you can in the case of breakdown; if you park in a dangerous place unnecessarily and serious time is lost, you may be going home for the early bath!

We do not always have adequate time to cover everything in the briefing meeting, because of timetable pressures, and we have up to 16 different nationalities competing with us. So, I also issue briefing notes the drivers/entrants can take with them, to peruse at their leisure; some do, some don't!

The idea of making it a requirement for drivers to spend at least one day with the marshals has been raised so, so many times by Chris Hobson, myself and others. It seems that the MSA insurers advise against any such compulsion - but I will raise it again, along with the general points raised here.

[PVDA]

Drivers in Australia going for thier CAMS licence must serve a minimum of 8 hours in one day at an event they're not competing at "on the bank".

This usually involves being buddied with a senior Flag Marshal and spending a day waving flags and they usually try to make sure it's a busy post so they don't get bored and get some experience on what goes on.

Shame it doesn't apply to existing licence renewals.

[brickkicker]

I must admit I have never been a big fan of forcing drivers into having a day on the bank, if they are forced to be there they can be more of a liability than a help. After all when you train to be a marshal you are not forced to spend a day with the CofC to see the problems they have upstairs (but we still moan about them on post because I am sure we can all do it better lol )
The ARDS is just to make sure you can drive around safely and is not designed to teach the driver what to do when it goes wrong. But most of it is common sense, but in the heat of the moment normally common sense goes out of the window and regardless how many days they are forced to marshal it wont make them remember when the red mist has set in.