GTE Speculation

[TF110]

I was speaking of all car makes, not just Toyota. I know the future of GTE class is in question, so who knows if manufacturers will make a new GTE until they know the future of the class.

[alexkiller8]

very probably will be similiar to the chronicles of 2000 years GT1...
the costs will increase dramatically letting only backed team able to run these cars (is a thing that basicly happens already now in almost all gtpro teams with the 2012/most updated gte cars), the roster of gte cars will decrease more and more and at the end the class will be disbanded in a way or another, and a new class will become the new standard.

Afterall each class has born from the ashes of the previous ones, dead because of economic unsustainability

mid'90 GT1 -> evolved in '97/'98 GT1 -> insane development has taken us to the creation of a GT1 class that basicly were prototypes - (DEATH OF THIS CLASS)

end'90 GT2 -> evolved in first generation of '2000 years GT1 cars like c5r -> evolved in second generation of '2000 years GT1 cars like dbr9 and mc12 -> evolved in a third and cheaper generation of post '2000 years GT1 as last attempt to save this class -
(DEATH OF THIS CLASS)

N-GT porsche and ferrari cars -> the entry of other manufacters made evolve this class during 2005 in a new GT2 class with updated cars -> with the decline of GT1 class, the GT2 class becomes the new top class for GT class in endurance racing, starting a wild and expensive development of a new generation of cars much more performant than the previous gt2 class -> ?


the cycle of these class seem to repeat time after time, the steps are:
1. beginning
2. first step of development
3. a huge second step of development with dramaticly increase of costs
4. death or agony period.

[Simmi]

I wouldn't be lining up to build a GTE right now until the regs come out.

The most likely in the short-term are GT3 makeovers of the Z4/SLS/McLaren etc.

Maybe these can combine with the current lot to tide the GT class over until new regs.

[rich07]

But unlike GT3 which has more technical freedom, doesnt a GT-E car have to use the production engine? Which sadly rules out a Z4 in its current form and with a six cylinder engine it would most probably be uncompetitive.

[Racenut]

Originally Posted by rich07

But unlike GT3 which has more technical freedom, doesnt a GT-E car have to use the production engine? Which sadly rules out a Z4 in its current form and with a six cylinder engine it would most probably be uncompetitive.

GTE allows waivers which would allow BMW to put a V8 in the Z4 IF they wanted to.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Racenut

GTE allows waivers which would allow BMW to put a V8 in the Z4 IF they wanted to.

Please provide a reference for this claim. As far as I know, the ACO/FIA has never granted a waiver for an engine swap.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Racenut

GTE allows waivers which would allow BMW to put a V8 in the Z4 IF they wanted to.

..and herein lies one of the problems. Waivers only serve to distort the rules. With so many waivers being handed out, the rules really become superfluous. It's a free-for-all.

I would rather that they make a set of (good) rules and then stick to them. They can periodically revisit the rules to make small adjustments.

[MitchZ06]

I'm fairly certain that within the rules a manufacturer can swap an engine into their car if it's already in production and made in a certain number (5-6000 I think). Thus BMW could use the 4.4L V8 just like the GT3 version.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I'm fairly certain that within the rules a manufacturer can swap an engine into their car if it's already in production and made in a certain number (5-6000 I think). Thus BMW could use the 4.4L V8 just like the GT3 version.

I'm not so sure about this. If you swap the engine from an M3 to a Z4, you obtain a different car, whom doesn't exist in the pricelist of the manufacturer. You've created a Frankenstein car, not a GT3. This class should be intended only for approved cars, and not for hybrid cars, made with pieces of different cars of the same manufacturers.
It's not in the spirit of the class, because you make a car that may false the BoP to be admitted in the class, penalizing regularly homologated cars for GT3.
It's not the right way to manage GT3. This class was intended as an economical way to race for private teams, but the missing of GT1 class has deeply changed the situation. Rising the costs, and allowing to works team to be in the match, it means to start the countdown to the closure of the GT3. The story always repeats.

[GTKers]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

the cycle of these class seem to repeat time after time, the steps are:
1. beginning
2. first step of development
3. a huge second step of development with dramaticly increase of costs
4. death or agony period.

problem is....With GT3 category whe are already at point 3 too !!!!

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Racenut

GTE allows waivers which would allow BMW to put a V8 in the Z4 IF they wanted to.

I've heard of all sorts of waivers in GT-E but never this one. ? You sure about this?

[MitchZ06]

From the GTE regulations (here) Art2.1.3d - "To be equipped with an engine used in a production car and made in a quantity of at least 300 units."

Doesn't specify whether or not that engine can only be from the car it is fitted to or any other engine produced by the mfger.

[Pandamasque]

AFAK a similar rule allowed Nissan to use an Infinity V8 block in a GT-R GT1.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

From the GTE regulations (here) Art2.1.3d - "To be equipped with an engine used in a production car and made in a quantity of at least 300 units."

Doesn't specify whether or not that engine can only be from the car it is fitted to or any other engine produced by the mfger.

But it cannot be considered a fair rule. The class must be intended for road cars, eligible in GT3 class, as well in GT2. It's not right for manufacturers producing regularly eligible cars. This is a serious problem when you have to accord regular and modificate cars under the same balance of performance.
Z4 would have been homologated in GT3 with its original engine, and not with a so deep modification. It changes the car, whom cannot be defined a Z4, but an hybrid between M3 and Z4. An M-Z 3-4?
It's not the first time BMW does something like this. I still remember the old M3 GT, in 2001. The car was fitted with a V8 4-litre engine, instead of its regular in line-6 3,2-litre. It was undefeatable for regular cars, infact it was withdrawn from the following season. Would you like to race in GT3/GTE class? Ok, you have to produce a car eligible for that class, instead to make some engine swapping. Why don't produce a GT3 version of the M3, instead to make this Z4 V8?
On the other hand, they could have produce a Z4 with its original engine, trying to make it competitive in GT3/GTE only basing on the balance of performance.
The car must be as close as possible to the street version, in GT3/GTE class, to avoid cost rising. At the same time, it would be auspicable to avoid works team to be in the match.
But this is harder, because manufacturers can fully support "private" teams, and this would not change facts...
Anyway, it should have more sense avoid engine swapping, as BMW has done.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

AFAK a similar rule allowed Nissan to use an Infinity V8 block in a GT-R GT1.

That's the point! Racing car is quite different from street ones! So only the name and the shape are the same! It's not the right way, this one.

[alexkiller8]

z4 gt3 uses already a swapped engine, the car uses the destroked p65 4.4 used in the street m3 gts, being the p65 an engine made by bmw and equiped in street car produced in more than 300 units i guess that a z4 gte can be equipped with the engine of the m3 gt2 (that is a racing p65).
Last year there was also the robertson doran ford GT that was using a NA 5.0 élan engine instead of a direct ford production engine like the 5.0 v8 coyote to make an example...
then just think that next year the new viper will be allowed to run with an engine with a displacement of 8.4 against a limit that in theory should be 5.5... so i think that if bmw wants to introduce a z4 gte, surely the engine swap is the last of their problems.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

z4 gt3 uses already a swapped engine, the car uses the destroked p65 4.4 used in the street m3 gts, being the p65 an engine made by bmw and equiped in street car produced in more than 300 units i guess that a z4 gte can be equipped with the engine of the m3 gt2 (that is a racing p65).
Last year there was also the robertson doran ford GT that was using a NA 5.0 élan engine instead of a direct ford production engine like the 5.0 v8 coyote to make an example...
then just think that next year the new viper will be allowed to run with an engine with a displacement of 8.4 against a limit that in theory should be 5.5... so i think that if bmw wants to introduce a z4 gte, surely the engine swap is the last of their problems.

That's the point! I know Z4 uses the 4.4 litre engine taken from M3 GTS. But I cannot explain why they do this. This car has not a street legal version, the base for homologation in GT3 as well for GTE. It would have more sense to produce a street V8 version of the Z4, with M3 engine, to make the car eligible in GT3 or GTE, avoiding any engine swapping.
Engine swapping is a bad thing, IMHO.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Dario911

That's the point! I know Z4 uses the 4.4 litre engine taken from M3 GTS. But I cannot explain why they do this. This car has not a street legal version, the base for homologation in GT3 as well for GTE. It would have more sense to produce a street V8 version of the Z4, with M3 engine, to make the car eligible in GT3 or GTE, avoiding any engine swapping.
Engine swapping is a bad thing, IMHO.

I'm kind of with you, but to Joe Public, does it really matter? All Joe sees is a BMW Z4 winning races - he doesn't ask if it's using the same engine as his own Z4 (which incidentally, does not have a whopping great rear wing on it like the race winning car )

Making a V8 verson of the Z4 might be costly and may not sell well enough, BMW must have reasons to do it this way.

I agree with you, it's not the way it should be, but this is just our personal preferences against the will of a major manufacturer.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Dario911

That's the point! Racing car is quite different from street ones! So only the name and the shape are the same! It's not the right way, this one.

With todays 530 Hp of a V6 GTR, could have been competitive enough?

I allways though the GTR had a different engine and size (Comparing the GTR GT1 to GTR GT1 safety car when it came out on track, you could state GTR GT1 was quite bigger than the road version) for promotional reasons, more than performance issues, to resemble more "Godzilla".
(Obviusly to accomodate a bigger engine.)

[Koenigsegg]

Originally Posted by Dario911

But it cannot be considered a fair rule. The class must be intended for road cars, eligible in GT3 class, as well in GT2. It's not right for manufacturers producing regularly eligible cars. This is a serious problem when you have to accord regular and modificate cars under the same balance of performance.
Z4 would have been homologated in GT3 with its original engine, and not with a so deep modification. It changes the car, whom cannot be defined a Z4, but an hybrid between M3 and Z4. An M-Z 3-4?
It's not the first time BMW does something like this. I still remember the old M3 GT, in 2001. The car was fitted with a V8 4-litre engine, instead of its regular in line-6 3,2-litre. It was undefeatable for regular cars, infact it was withdrawn from the following season. Would you like to race in GT3/GTE class? Ok, you have to produce a car eligible for that class, instead to make some engine swapping. Why don't produce a GT3 version of the M3, instead to make this Z4 V8?
On the other hand, they could have produce a Z4 with its original engine, trying to make it competitive in GT3/GTE only basing on the balance of performance.
The car must be as close as possible to the street version, in GT3/GTE class, to avoid cost rising. At the same time, it would be auspicable to avoid works team to be in the match.
But this is harder, because manufacturers can fully support "private" teams, and this would not change facts...
Anyway, it should have more sense avoid engine swapping, as BMW has done.

BMW introduced the M3 GTR with a V8 engine (after complaints from other teams that the race car was not legal, if I remember correctly).

The Motorsport-Total article mentions that the ACO might change the rules to include upgraded GT3 cars.

And there have been rumours, since the release of the new Z4, that there will be a V8 version of the Z4 someday.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

From the GTE regulations (here) Art2.1.3d - "To be equipped with an engine used in a production car and made in a quantity of at least 300 units."

Doesn't specify whether or not that engine can only be from the car it is fitted to or any other engine produced by the mfger.

It does not even specify that the engine has to be from the same manufacturer as the car. Maybe they should put the 8.0 V10 Viper engine in the BMW Z4

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

It does not even specify that the engine has to be from the same manufacturer as the car. Maybe they should put the 8.0 V10 Viper engine in the BMW Z4

the article it seems that is free to be interprted... by the way, already in the past cars like ford GT1 and corvette c6r ran with an engine not entirely built and supplied by the same manufacter (roush and katech).

[Dead-Eye]

You need to look at article 5.2: "Cylinder block, cylinder head(s), valve angles, firing order, number and location of camshafts : they must remain original, as they are fitted on the series vehicle. The firing order is free."

[tje23]

Could the ACO not just avoid the inevitable declien of GTE by making some simple changes? Instead of GTE-Am and GTE-Pro, they could have a works only GTE-Pro, with teams requiring at least 2 cars each, and GTE-Privateer, with teams restricted to using year old cars without performance upgrades. If the ACO were so concerned about 'disguised' works teams, they could even peg back GTE-Privateer by fuel loads, meaning they would be at a disadvantage at classics like Le Mans and Sebring. This is, of course, reliant on a really strong Pro grid, else it would destroy great GTE racing completely!

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by tje23

Could the ACO not just avoid the inevitable declien of GTE by making some simple changes? Instead of GTE-Am and GTE-Pro, they could have a works only GTE-Pro, with teams requiring at least 2 cars each, and GTE-Privateer, with teams restricted to using year old cars without performance upgrades. If the ACO were so concerned about 'disguised' works teams, they could even peg back GTE-Privateer by fuel loads, meaning they would be at a disadvantage at classics like Le Mans and Sebring. This is, of course, reliant on a really strong Pro grid, else it would destroy great GTE racing completely!

I would like to see that. The only problem is GT3...

If GTE needs to survived, the FIA and ACO must work together to salvage this class into a works teams, all while restructuring the GT3 class into a privateers' paradise.