GTE Speculation

[JAG]

Mclaren are a certainty to build a GTE, but they want to roll out the GT3 first.

DSC report AMG Mercedes are working on a car for 2013, possibly with a test outing in 2012, likewise Reiter are producing a new GTE Lamborghini, the previous car was basically a GT3 adapted to GTE wihtout sufficient development.

A team(s) want the R8 LMS homologated in the ALMS, others want it to be homologated worldwide.

The Viper has gone quiet publicaly but there's some suggestion it's all systems go and will appear in 2012.

When people go on about how many GT3 models are homologated you have to consider many no longer race, and due to the BoP nature of the class, cars go in and out of favour.

[Mr Pink]

Pardon my ignorance but there's no BoP in GTE right?

[TF110]

Speaking of GTE, wasn't the Vette suppose to be testing this week? If so where are the pictures?

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

Pardon my ignorance but there's no BoP in GTE right?

There sort of is, yes - it was unofficial for years but now there is one of sorts. However, it's not quite as fixed on making all the cars identically equal as the FIA ones are, it's about bringing different types and configurations of car within a certain percentage of each other's performance.

I think.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

Pardon my ignorance but there's no BoP in GTE right?

Well the cars have restrictors and they are not all the same, so yeah, there is BoP.

I can't think of any racing series that doesn't have BoP.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by kyoung

I can't think of any racing series that doesn't have BoP.

I'm having a hard time coming up with a list of series without BoP. Some are more obvious than others, but an argument could be made that the blatantly obvious pro-BoP series are at least being honest. Still, that does not make the situation any better for me the fan. Anyway, can anyone come up with a list of non-BoP and non-spec professional racing series in the world? I really would like a list so I can shop around. I'm drawing a blank. F1 maybe? Ugh. No. Indycar maybe? I don't know about their new rules. Still, the answer is no there too.

Anywho, with GTE you not only have BoP through restrictors and weight, but you also get mysterious waivers on top of that. Then, at least in the case of the ALMS, you get the roulette wheel of BoP.

[porsche91722]

Aus V8SC ?

[Speed-King]

Technically DTM, but they are really treading the line to spec with the new rules...

[alexkiller8]

the bop has been done also in f1 when in 2005 some teams still ran with the old and restricted 3.0 v10 instead of the brand new 2.4 v8.
However the "bop" of IMSA/ACO is better in my opinion because gives more freedom to the developers, surely won't never happen that because of a "raping" bop a car won't never be deliberately competitive (who said callaway corvette?).
DTM has a sort of ubop (unbalance of performance), with better and more developed official team cars against old version of the same car, even if this has been controverted this year.
Maybe the GT500 has not a bop? even if i read more than once that in 2010 and 2011 the nissan cars were the lightest of the roster with some more hp than the sc430 and hsv-010 (because of a better and sgt500 oriented engine developed, the size of restrictors is the same for all 3 brand cars)

[AGD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Aus V8SC ?

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Technically DTM, but they are really treading the line to spec with the new rules...

You guys might be right about those. Granted, each of those series only have two manufacturers in them (at least in 2011 - we know about DTM's future). Still, I guess there are differences amongst the entries even if the badge on the grille is the same. Then again, that is the case with GTE too when multiple teams run the same type of car. Well, I guess no within and no between BoP is better than between BoP.

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

the bop has been done also in f1 when in 2005 some teams still ran with the old and restricted 3.0 v10 instead of the brand new 2.4 v8.

I guess it's always tricky when there are multiple engine types. I remember USAC with the push rod rules at Indy. Whether USAC tried to game the rules in favor of the push rod engines has always been worthy of a debate in Indycar circles (as well as the debate about CART's push rod rules at the same time). Of course, the "haves" were always entitled to run push rods at Indy if they wanted to and Penske finally did when purpose built push rod engines were allowed. So much for that BoP!

Maybe the GT500 has not a bop? even if i read more than once that in 2010 and 2011 the nissan cars were the lightest of the roster with some more hp than the sc430 and hsv-010 (because of a better and sgt500 oriented engine developed, the size of restrictors is the same for all 3 brand cars)

I might be way off on this (hence why I am asking), but doesn't GT500 have success ballast? IMO, success ballast is the most insulting form of BoP, but I guess BoP is BoP one way or another.

BTW, I apologize for taking the thread off topic, but I think it kyoung posed a fascinating question.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by kyoung

Well the cars have restrictors and they are not all the same, so yeah, there is BoP.

I can't think of any racing series that doesn't have BoP.

When a car runs away with it and the officials can't figure out how to slow it down, they usually ban in. Kind of like Audi Quattro in Trans Am and the sucker car, both dominant in their time.

[alexkiller8]

sure, super gt has maybe the harshest succes ballast of all motorsport, but in my opinion this more than balance of performance, should be called balance of penality!
however in theory there shouldn't be a bop in gt500 because IN THEORY all cars start the season with same weight (1100kg) same power output (500hp) and same basic specs, even if work teams like tom's and nismo have better aero updates. But in the reality this doesn't happen because some cars are lighter than 1100kg and have more than 500hp sometimes, so who knows.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by trahsub

When a car runs away with it and the officials can't figure out how to slow it down, they usually ban in. Kind of like Audi Quattro in Trans Am and the sucker car, both dominant in their time.

not always happens like this; recently "undefeatable" cars like audi r8 and r10 before the 908HDi, maserati mc12 gt1, m3 gt early 2011 (gt2s specs) etc.... have been tuned down someway but the ban was impossible because of the manufacter's influence.

[Speed-King]

I might be way off on this (hence why I am asking), but doesn't GT500 have success ballast? IMO, success ballast is the most insulting form of BoP, but I guess BoP is BoP one way or another.

Well, there is one advantage of success ballast over regular BoP - you know what you're getting into and it's not some shadowy process in some backrooms in Paris.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, there is one advantage of success ballast over regular BoP - you know what you're getting into and it's not some shadowy process in some backrooms in Paris.

You're right, but the fact that success ballast may be the most honest option in auto racing today makes me want to vomit!

[TRuss]

Me too. It's just too socialist. Hey, great work on becoming a success...now we don't know or care how you did it but, we're sure it wasn't fair to everyone else so we have no choice but to penalize you for doing well. That way we won't have to depend on everyone else improving.

[kyoung]

The moment a sanctioning body tries to even things out is when it becomes unfair because it takes racing from the track to the boardroom where the rules can be influenced to help the infirmed. The good old Darwin method is best, the strong survive and win the weak evolve or die. It’s a funny little thing called competition.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by kyoung

The moment a sanctioning body tries to even things out is when it becomes unfair because it takes racing from the track to the boardroom where the rules can be influenced to help the infirmed. The good old Darwin method is best, the strong survive and win the weak evolve or die. It’s a funny little thing called competition.

...problem is that in this day and age things no longer work this way. There is not a lot of money to be made in sportscar racing right now, and when people spend their own money and keep losing, they tend to take their ball and go home.

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by kyoung

The moment a sanctioning body tries to even things out is when it becomes unfair because it takes racing from the track to the boardroom where the rules can be influenced to help the infirmed. The good old Darwin method is best, the strong survive and win the weak evolve or die. It’s a funny little thing called competition.

Amen. I think the frustration created by beeing punished fot doing good scares about as many off as not beeing competative.

[Mt. Lynx]

Personally I´m all for BoP:ing sportscars. Lets´face it - if they don´t do it, we´ll end up with very one sided racing, and eventually any series with a single winner all the time, kills itself.
It doesn´t matter if it´s unfair, or unrewarding for the winners, at the end of the day, all racing exists because of the fans - or more precise, the car buyers - and they want to see racing, not trains.

If there is a better way to level out the competition, sure thing, try it out, but the way I see it, if we want a diversity of cars, we will have to suffer some form of BoP.
There could be harder rules, though, but I don´t know how costly it would be to develop a certain production car to a sort of formula - Ex; 600bhp, 1200kg min. weight, 1000kg of downforce at 250kph, a set drag coefficient of 0.21, maybe even a set torque. Spec brakes, tires, ecu, rims, gearbox.
I feel that would take away some of the charm of the cars.

[tje23]

Number of things I don't think have been mentioned:

Gulf AMR Middle East (which ran a Vantage GT2 this year in ILMC) are NOT running a LMP2 car. That car is run by Gulf Racing, with Fabien Groirox from Gulf AMR. I actually spoke to some of the team and they mantioned they are undecided about next year, but will still run the Vantage GT2 and new McLaren MP4-12C, so without a Le Mans entry I guess the Vantage will be sidelined - especially with the 2 Upgraded GTE Vantages being run by Aston Martin Racing themselves!

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

...problem is that in this day and age things no longer work this way. There is not a lot of money to be made in sportscar racing right now, and when people spend their own money and keep losing, they tend to take their ball and go home.

To be honest I would rather watch some stripped out show room stock cars with a roll bar slicks and a wing running to their full potential than BoP’d cars with their fate determined by SRO/FIA cronies, it would be a hell of a lot less expensive too. It’s the same old excuse, but you fail to mention that anyone can buy whatever car is winning if they believe it has an edge. I don’t think manufacturers will sit around too long before they do what is needed to make their car competitive. And as far as driver ratings go, what self respecting race driver thinks he is second best, and if you don’t believe you measure up you shouldn’t expect to beat a more talented driver, you should be happy just to be able to compete. So bring on the 458, GT-R, ZR1, R8, LFA, and Turbo Porky and have some real racing.

[Mt. Lynx]

Until someone enters a Gumpert Apollo and cleans house, that could be fun.

That is the problem with diversity. There will always be a rabbit no one can catch. Like it or not, some form of BoP is necessary in GT racing. The other option is to go spec, and lose the diversity.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by kyoung

To be honest I would rather watch some stripped out show room stock cars with a roll bar slicks and a wing running to their full potential than BoP’d cars

I agree fully with that. In fact, I'd rather see tube-framers that loosely resemble their street car inspirations that do not rely on BoP and phantom waivers.

BoP, what's the point? I don't know why you guys watch racing, but I want to see the cars, teams, and drivers compete in a competition. Some cars are better race cars than others. If you want to win, either make your car a good race car or buy what works best. If I want to see a bunch of different looking sports cars, I'll go to a car show and see them there. I want to see competition. Sometimes competitions are close, sometimes they aren't. Sometimes a football game that ends with a score of 59-0 can be as thrilling as a 31-31 game if a team is really showing superior talent. Auto racing is no different from swimming, basketball, football, or whatever other sport in that it takes a lot of preparation, talent, and hard work to succeed at the highest levels. If you don't have all those ingredients, either accept defeat and enjoy participating or don't show up.

[JAG]

In sport you start with equal equipment and numbers, in a series like the WRC everyone runs a 4wd 1.6T hatchback, therefore no need for BoP.

In GT racing every car has a unique feature, in addition to basic regulations, BoP is needed to give everyone an equal starting point, then it's down to the best man wins.