Driver weight in FF1600

[chris1600]

As some of you may know, next year the Castle Combe championship will be run with a combined car/driver weight of 495kg as well as the normal 420 kg car minimum weight.

It would seem that this is popular with the majority of competitors in the Castle Combe championship. Its not with me. However, you can't argue with popular opinion and it's going to be 'trialled' for next year (except the carnival) and may or may not be made permanent for 2009.

If i've pressed the right buttons there will be a poll attached to this thread and I would like to know what the consensus is amongst the rest of the FF1600 community.

In my own humble opinion this rule change is wrong. Motor racing is about ability behind the wheel and the technical aspect of designing and setting up a racing car. The weight of the driver is irrelavent. I weigh 60 kgs, so I guess I may be one of the light drivers around, but I feel that I am being penalised because of this. My light weight could be described as a natural advantage like talent. Perhaps FF1600 races could be run as handicap races that would even out things as regards talent in the way that this rule change evens out the issue of driver weight.

We recently had a poll about limiting the use of tyres to try to reduce costs. If I recall correctly(please correct me if i am wrong, i haven't checked), there was not a huge amount of support for this. Surely having vast sums of money to spend makes more difference to your chances of winning than your weight. There is also the steel cranks issue. It would seem a good idea, but there is no initiative to change this, especially from organisers.

So there we go, i've had a bit of a moan, sorry its so long. What do you all think? Or am I alone in not liking the 495 car/driver rule.

Chris

[Chris Horton]

I'm quite happy with a driver+car weight limit - it brings the regulations into line with many other Formula and with my weight at 77kgs it suits me fine! At the end of the day, if you are light you still have the advantage of placing the ballast in a [relatively] advantagous position. Given that I'm 32 and just want to race as inexpensively as is reasonable and on as level a playing field as I can then the chance to limit it to driving skill as best as possible suits me fine. I'm sure if I weighed 20kg less then I'd feel different but 495kg all up sounds pretty reasonable to me - not too heavy as to be stupidly open and not too light to mean all but those of jockey build are disadvantaged.

[Tim Draffan]

Chris, I have voted in favour as I agree with you that motor racing is about ability, this rule creates a level playing field so nat ability can be shown.

I would also like to appluad the Castle Combe club for listening to its members and trialing this change. FF1600 must loose some potential drivers who are put off entering this catagory as they are penalised for not being average or below average weight.

And for the record I would be at a slight disadvantage but I feel it is far.

[A Quartermaine]

I am in favour of equalising the weights as much as possible, it should create closer racing.

[mattray]

I have no problem with a combined weight at all. I don't think it will make any difference in terms of who is at the front middle and back.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Having just moved into FF1600 from FVee we were surprised to find that there was no "all up" minimum weight at the end of the race. You just get used to running over the scales on your way through parc ferme. We used to run with 20kgs of ballast and taking fuel consumption into account finished about 3 -4 kg over at the end of the race. This was because we found scales at tracks vary quite a bit.

I think this would be a positive move and whilst I agree it might not change the running order at the very top of the grid very much it will even things up through the field.

In any case since weight and laptime are so closely related it's a no brainer if you want a fair fight.

[Robin Webster]

Personally, at 94Kg's I'd like to see it, then I wouldn't get mullered down the straights!!

Robin ;-)

[JohnMiller]

I'm sure I remember that, on average, 10kgs means a lap time difference of around 0.1s, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

[simes43]

The weight of the driver is irrelavent. To who?

Why should an equally talented driver have to carry around an extra 35kg of ballast if he or she is 95kg in weight?

The only fair way is to have a combined weight for driver and car.

[JustinDawkins]

Absolutley. If I recall Gavin had some interesting data which compared himself and Trevor Cooper (a festively large man) and their difference in acceleration times didn't he John?

It wouldn;t make a back marker a front runner, but it would slow down some of the lightweights such a Boyd, Rivett and Bradshaw (to name but a few). It would create a fairer playing field and better racing.

As everyone who races in FF1600 s a good sport; then I doubt anyone really has an objection to being made to work a little bit harder for a win.

[Matt22]

Well I'm 75kg so I can confidently say it will have zero impact on me! To be honest I'd have thought the limit should be a bit higher. There can't be many over 30s who are much lighter than 75kg.

Anyhow, whatever the limit, I'm a bit concerned that CC is going it's own way. Can we not get the BRSCC to do the same (falls over laughing...) and Ireland so that we can turn up and race anywhere without mods? It's alright saying fit a steel floor or add 20kg but it's not a five-minute-job so could put off the occasional visitor.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by JustinDawkins

Absolutley. If I recall Gavin had some interesting data which compared himself and Trevor Cooper (a festively large man) and their difference in acceleration times didn't he John?

That's where I got my 0.1s from, although it might be 0.3s - I can't remember.

[JustinDawkins]

Ah OK, I thought it was more than 0.1s to be honest.

[JohnMiller]

per 10kg?

[Mr.Jingles]

thats about 11 stone 10 pounds (off the top of my head) - thats a good base weight, as only the young or short & thin would be under that.

It'd certainly make things easier for me! I'm hoping to race at Combe next year, and although I won't be down to that weight any time in the next millenium it's closer to my goal weight of 12 1/2 - 13st than 8/9 st

I can see problems coming up with securing the ballast however, and also people competing in other championships suffering handling issues after changing the fundamental balance of their car to remain competitive by removing / re-adding it.

[chris1600]

Thanks all for voting and for you replies.

It looks like i'm in the minority. Personally I believe that it is wrong and against the spirit of motorsport.

However the wishes of the many outweigh the wishes of the few.

[Barry Pomfret]

Monoposto already run a driver/ car combined weight limit, last year Jen Scott did a few races in one of my zetec cars in the 1800 class, even with a full tank of fuel at the start of the race we had to run 23 kg of lead. It is difficult to find places to strap 23 kilos in a modern formula ford !

[brakedisc]

Did anyone make a FF1600 under 395KG ?

Can you still get a licence at 54?

[Chris Horton]

Originally Posted by chris1600

Thanks all for voting and for you replies.

It looks like i'm in the minority. Personally I believe that it is wrong and against the spirit of motorsport.

However the wishes of the many outweigh the wishes of the few.

I understand your point but the spirit of completely open motorsport is already diluted in Formula Ford, in the sense that as a carefully controlled series the car mass and construction method, tyre type, engine performance and other key parameters are all already artificially tightly controlled to try to control cost and level the playing field to driver skill. As long as the weight limit is representative of a reasonably fit specimen of the human race then it's not unreasonable in my opinion.

The work I did on mass suggested that 10kg was worth about 0.2s a lap at Mallory but I don't know how generally applicable that is.

[diz]

Originally Posted by brakedisc

Did anyone make a FF1600 under 395KG ?

Probably, as the weight limit used to be 400kg

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by Barry Pomfret

Monoposto already run a driver/ car combined weight limit, last year Jen Scott did a few races in one of my zetec cars in the 1800 class, even with a full tank of fuel at the start of the race we had to run 23 kg of lead. It is difficult to find places to strap 23 kilos in a modern formula ford !

**** me, 23 kilos and a full tank - how much did Jen weigh 6 stone???

[Barry Pomfret]

Minimum weight with driver is 535kg, my car is already 3 kg underweight when dry, 447kg plus about 10kg of fuel at end of race = 457. 535-457= 78 kilos for driver and ballast. So it appears Jen weighs about 55 kilos (8.5 stone).She is very small!

[Triple J Motorsport]

yeah about 30kg lighter than me!! She should do FF1600!!

[JustinDawkins]

...erm and about 48kgs+ lighter than me!

[chris1600]

Originally Posted by Chris Horton

I understand your point but the spirit of completely open motorsport is already diluted in Formula Ford, in the sense that as a carefully controlled series the car mass and construction method, tyre type, engine performance and other key parameters are all already artificially tightly controlled to try to control cost and level the playing field to driver skill. As long as the weight limit is representative of a reasonably fit specimen of the human race then it's not unreasonable in my opinion.

The work I did on mass suggested that 10kg was worth about 0.2s a lap at Mallory but I don't know how generally applicable that is.

I agree that FF1600 is not completely open, and I entirely support the rule that reduce costs. However, I don't beleive that the weight of the driver is somthing that the organisers are right to regulate against. If we are talking about promoting driver skill, then physical condition is a similar sort of thing. I didn't think technical regulations covered people.

I'm sure the heavier drivers could loose a few pounds if they were concerned that it was slowing them down.