Spa Classic Touring cars

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Here are all the details concerning the Avon Historic All Weather tyres :

http://www.avonmotorsport.com/histor...0all%20weather

Let me know your thoughts. Louis.

Thanks for the link Louis. The sizes are correct for my application and I have spoken to BMTR who supply in UK and they confirm OK to fit on touring cars.

So it all boils down to whether people want to fork out for another set of tyres that may only get used one weekend, and also whether the event at Brands Hatch same weekend where Masters and JD Classics Challenge are racing on slicks is an attractive enough and cheaper alternative!

BTW, noise level comes into the mix as well. Any idea what limit will be at Spa for touring cars?

I have always wanted to race my Gp2 car at Spa, but will need to make a decision on cost. Will let you know!

[356sc]

Hi Louis........any chance of getting a "Flat 4" grid at the Spa Classic?

[Duddha]

Well, from a noise point of view (FIA control) :

- Maximum noise 103 dB(a) + 4 dB(A) at 4500 RPM

The price - 1800 € - for :

- 1 place for the car in a garage
- Race numbers
- 40 min' of untimed practice (day)
- 30 min' of night qualifying
- 40 min' of day qualifying
- 60 min' day race
- 60 min' night race
- Drivers Club and passes for 2
- 2 Non Drivers Club passes
- 2 parkings

That's a very good package considering the circuit and track time (110' min of practice and 2 hours of racing (1 or 2 drivers)).

And racing in between Friday and Saturday night so you can go home

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by 356sc

Hi Louis........any chance of getting a "Flat 4" grid at the Spa Classic?

No Flat 4, but a Sixties' Endurance if you wish to enter your car.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Have emails Louis, and Peter, and consulted my Co driver . .

The co driver I believe is in training in another countryfor a while and is going to lose a fair bit of weight by having a haircut ! but this is only a rumor.

[terence]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

The co driver I believe is in training in another countryfor a while and is going to lose a fair bit of weight by having a haircut ! but this is only a rumor.

Shock Horror!!!!! Its only a syrup!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Well, from a noise point of view (FIA control) :

- Maximum noise 103 dB(a) + 4 dB(A) at 4500 RPM

The price - 1800 €
That's a very good package considering the circuit and track time (110' min of practice and 2 hours of racing (1 or 2 drivers)).

And racing in between Friday and Saturday night so you can go home

I get the VFM, Louis. I'm sold on that! Trouble is tyres will be about the same. Not sure how the noise limit needs to be interpreted, but I run a silencer and have option of a second if needed. Alex is the one that likes to be LOUD.....

[terence]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I get the VFM, Louis. I'm sold on that! Trouble is tyres will be about the same. Not sure how the noise limit needs to be interpreted, but I run a silencer and have option of a second if needed. Alex is the one that likes to be LOUD.....

Capri comes out at 101 on twin system,so not a problem for me either.
Regards lighting Louis,will it be period,extra lamps allowed and so on?

[zefarelly]

I read the 'bumph' and generally Peter Auto insists on period lights.

Lucas served me well at LeMans on ther HArrington, so I'll do the same to the Cortina.

I'm not partially sighted . . .and neithers the co-driver . . . if he bottles the trim he'll just have to part the curtains!

[Al Weyman]

Man up guys, I have been running the Camaro on 8" x 15" rims on those Formula Dunlops things for years, sort the men from the boys lol (only kidding honest)! I would imagine it was the Dunlops that used to be required by CTCRC that Joe was referring to. I could be interested in this sort of stuff but for one thing, brakes. I once ran my car on standard Camaro sliding calipers and drum rears and quite frankly apart from being very costly as the pads bent every race and had to be replaced at great cost they were bloody dangerous and I would never go back to them. Agree with the homologatred wheel diameter rule to keep brake sizes down however. We have more and more safety equipment required and yet you insist on standard brakes that were one stop specials and always were crap in period?????? The tyre restrictions will nulify the effect of better brakes as I can lock four wheels at virtually any speed and so have to be careful the difference is they dont fad like the standard ones.

[Alex E]

On the CSL`s I have always used the Cibie replacements for the 4 x 53/4" standard lights. With a couple of relays & `modern` bulbs they are very good.

[zefarelly]

The trouble with Leniency Al . . .is give an inch and they take 100 miles . . . big wheels, brakes and tyres all justify bent hot engines. Back in the day, even before you started racing Diplodoci, Big cars needed racing carefully . . . they had drum brakes.

The problems not the cars, its the drivers.

[Alex E]

Louis,
My concern with these tyres is that an investment of £2-3000 in sufficient tyres for the Spa race would be a one off cost for us. As I can not see any situation in any other race where they would be used again in preferance to slicks / wets.
This effectively trebles the entry fee for most of us. I would prefer to take my chances on it raining mid race & driving slowly back to the pits to change tyres. As we do at LMC, Nurburging, etc..
Alex

[terence]

One set of 6 ZZs should easily see us through the whole event Alex,assuming a suitable size is available.
Lighting wise,I have taken the same route,but for the two auxiliary lamps will be using some period fogs with decent bulbs fitted!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by terence bower

One set of 6 ZZs should easily see us through the whole event Alex,assuming a suitable size is available.

Terence, for my fitment and I suspect Alex's the ZZs are not an option. For example the 15" sizes are at least 5" larger diameter than normal slicks. And of course being treaded radials (not period correct for Gp2!) the car set up would have to be changed to suit.......

I have to agree with Alex about the cost being 'one off'. Maybe the historic all weather treaded could become my wets, but the normal Avon full wet would still be preferable in very wet conditions.

Those running on Ls have as usual got no option- which is a plus!

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by terence bower

One set of 6 ZZs

Set of 6? What you running, Tyrrell or March?

[terence]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Set of 6? What you running, Tyrrell or March?

Bit of a job hiding the second front axle under the Capri,but it hardly notices.

[Peter Mallett]

I am glad that GP 1 and 2 is finally being recognised but as this thread demonstrates there is a confusion as to what can be run where.

If the cars originally ran on slicks then what benefit is there in running treaded tyres?

If JDC and Masters permits original spec tyres, plus the HSCC touring cars I have to question the viability of going this route.

As Mike and Alex point out. To run non original tyres is expensive and will possibly discourage people from signing up to what sounds like a great opportunity.

The other point as raised by Mike, is that without buying extra wheels and tyres there is the Brands GP event on the same weekend.

Good luck for this but I think there needs to be some recognition of the availability of series for these cars and the respective regs.

[Mike Bell]

Peter, I think Louis has suggested the advantages of running treaded tyres from their point of view. It is how CER operate, but they have a series to run them in. Personally, I am firmly in the 'ran slicks in period- run slicks now' camp as long as they are period crossply type.

I don't know how it works with youngtimers or other touring car series t'other side of channel, but have just gone through what the two UK race series that currently cater for Gp2 cars say about tyres.

The JD Classics series regs say- "Cars must run tyres in accordance with FIA Appendix K." For period H (that runs from 1971) that is "slicks and wet tyres". No suggestion of crossply but I would like to think that meant "of period construction". In practice, this year cars were to be seen on a variety of tread patterns and construction. Hopefully if the series gets stronger this can be clarified for the future. (Don't forget, am only talking about Gp2, not Gp1.)

When Masters started 'Touring 70s' the regulations required period crossply slicks or equivalent wet pattern tyres. Now the series has morphed into '70s Celebration' the regulations state- "All TC classes are permitted to use slick tyres or treaded tyres as listed in the MSA ‘Blue Book’ or FIA ‘Yellow Book’ that are recognised and approved by Masters Historic Racing." My take is that means any 1a / 1b tyre or slicks- as long as Masters recognise and approve them. Not sure how they police that.

That all suggests the Avon 'All Weather Historic' could be used in either series but why would I want to when slicks would be faster and last longer?

Hope this can be sorted out- I think my Escort would look cool at Spa with a pair of Oscars mounted low on the front like they were for Spa 24hrs in period....

[Peter Mallett]

Mike,

I understand the rational behind the tyre decision, my point is why? Logically if these cars are running on slicks or the modern treaded tyres such as Toyos (due to size etc.) Then it makes no sense to be out of step.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Mike,

I understand the rational behind the tyre decision, my point is why? Logically if these cars are running on slicks or the modern treaded tyres such as Toyos (due to size etc.) Then it makes no sense to be out of step.

Peter, I'm with you but playing the devils advocate here! I stand to be corrected on this but from memory there are already a few touring cars running in CER, so maybe to make it easier for them? The regs state- "cars corresponding to those which competed in the major world championship endurance races between 1966 & 1979: Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona, Brands Hatch, 1000 km of Monza, Spa, Nürburgring, Silverstone".

The specific classes mentioned are "GT and Touring Cars and Prototypes". Out of step with others, but in step for them, perhaps?

HMRN advertised a one off endurance race at Monza CI event this year for their prototype cars and invited early Gp2 cars as well. From memory tyres were to be treaded, but that would be more correct for late 60s.

Just read the CER regs a bit further and slicks are allowed on 1975 to 1979 cars!

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

The trouble with Leniency Al . . .is give an inch and they take 100 miles . . . big wheels, brakes and tyres all justify bent hot engines. Back in the day, even before you started racing Diplodoci, Big cars needed racing carefully . . . they had drum brakes.

The problems not the cars, its the drivers.

that's why i stated the wheel and tyre rule is sound and the diameter rule will stop the huge brakes for example with 15 inch rims i can only just get the gm optional LE1 12 inch disc to fit no more but these are cheap and as the original set up i.e. Integral disc and hub or rotor as they call them. They also give a reliable and safe brake. If i sell this car to someone who wants it in the group one spec i do have all the standard stuff to go with it.

[Alex E]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Peter, I'm with you but playing the devils advocate here! I stand to be corrected on this but from memory there are already a few touring cars running in CER, so maybe to make it easier for them? The regs state- "cars corresponding to those which competed in the major world championship endurance races between 1966 & 1979: Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona, Brands Hatch, 1000 km of Monza, Spa, Nürburgring, Silverstone".

The specific classes mentioned are "GT and Touring Cars and Prototypes". Out of step with others, but in step for them, perhaps?

HMRN advertised a one off endurance race at Monza CI event this year for their prototype cars and invited early Gp2 cars as well. From memory tyres were to be treaded, but that would be more correct for late 60s.

Just read the CER regs a bit further and slicks are allowed on 1975 to 1979 cars!

___________________________________________________

If slicks are allowed for `75 on cars in CER would it not make sense to keep cars pre`71 (the most recent FIA period change..) on treaded tyres. Allow post `71 to use slicks as in period ? This would be the most sensible option I think?
Alex

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Alex E

If slicks are allowed for `75 on cars in CER would it not make sense to keep cars pre`71 (the most recent FIA period change..) on treaded tyres. Allow post `71 to use slicks as in period ? This would be the most sensible option I think?
Alex

Sounds good to me Alex.

[AntA35]

It would seem most sensible to me to let cars run what they ran in period, i.e. slicks and wets on their homologated rim sizes. For those of us who can't find slicks to fit (as yet, until we get some made) then they can use a suitable treaded tyre of period construction whether they be Toyo, Yoko, Avon, Dunlop etc. Whatever the treaded tyre used, it will always be slower than a slick but at least one has a choice to use something suitable that fits your homologated rim size and is close to original spec size... or you stump up for some slicks/wets to be made.

To specify yet another tyre type that everyone must use (which isn't as per what was run in period) will switch people off and that's the last thing Group 1 and Group 2 car owners need!

Stick to the period details, everyone knows where they stand! Simples!