ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Pandamasque]

Interesting timing
http://www.lemans.org/en/news/Le_Man...n_14_5734.html

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Interesting timing
http://www.lemans.org/en/news/Le_Man...n_14_5734.html

The ACO doesn't really care about the ALMS, so not so surprising.

[Danske]

I had thought it wouldn't be too bad if the ALMS petered out and were replaced by WEC rounds at Sebring and Petit, but not now if it were a case a fratricide. Sadly, Panoz may consider that still mission accomplished as long as money is still being made from spec series.

[The Badger]

Forget it .

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

I cannot imagine that the WEC race would replace a Grand-Am event especially if it is at an ISC track. The whole purpose of NASCAR killing off the ALMS is to help support Grand-Am. I guess that's why something like a Fall Daytona race would work. Maybe a fall race on the Homestead roval would work too? I know they have NASCAR there during the fall, but perhaps something could be worked out.

I'd suggest the whole purpose of NASCAR killing off the ALMS is to help............NASCAR. Should such a situation arise expect funding for GA to be reigned in, leaving it to stand or fall on it's own means. On the ACO/FIA's part I don't think there's any particular favouritism to go with a Panoz, France or neutral track, but if I was to rank them I'd say Sebring, Daytona, Montreal, then take your pick of Laguna, Road America/Atlanta, Watkins Glen etc.

As far as Dyson having "new" cars, I'm guessing the word "new" refers to their specification and not them being freshly poured tubs. Maybe they will have 1 new car if they run 3 cars, but I don't know.

It was my understanding they ran in the hybrid P1/P2 spec because the tub (or some other major/expensive) parts could not be used in a full P1 spec car, hence running under 900kg and using P2 wheels.

Anyway, just because they are running a new specification that is built around ACO regs does not mean they have to run those cars to ACO regs. LMP1s are running ballast, right? So just take some of that ballast off and open up the restrictors some (or a lot). That's perfectly do-able and IMSA has given teams restrictor and weight breaks on their cars beyond ACO spec so it's not like we're talking about something impossible or unprecedented. All they have to do now is run those different rules against ACO spec cars. It would be great, but as I said earlier, nobody knows whether it will actually happen or not even if the ALMS says that it is a possibility.

ALMS teams want a shot at victory, if a petrol car can be competitive (and that's what the new regs intention is), there's no reason to make IMSA specific changes. Should home cars be given a major performance advantage it would not only ruin the race, it would finally break any WEC/ALMS relationship and make the victory worthless. You also need to consider chassis and engines are designed to specific limits, some petrol teams were unwilling to take the small restrictor break handed to them prior to Le Mans, as engine reliability couldn't be guaranteed without further testing.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'd suggest the whole purpose of NASCAR killing off the ALMS is to help............NASCAR. Should such a situation arise expect funding for GA to be reigned in, leaving it to stand or fall on it's own means. On the ACO/FIA's part I don't think there's any particular favouritism to go with a Panoz, France or neutral track, but if I was to rank them I'd say Sebring, Daytona, Montreal, then take your pick of Laguna, Road America/Atlanta, Watkins Glen etc.

Sports car racing has been a pet project of the France family on and off for many decades now. I think they have a legitimate personal interest in sports car racing (albeit their vision of road racing is different from most of ours) and thus I would expect Grand-Am to continue on. It would be a different story if NASCAR road racing encroaches upon NASCAR's bread and butter series, but that's not going to happen so it's not even worth worrying about.

It was my understanding they ran in the hybrid P1/P2 spec because the tub (or some other major/expensive) parts could not be used in a full P1 spec car, hence running under 900kg and using P2 wheels.

Perhaps, but I think it should be theoretically possible to convert a P2 Lola to a P1 Lola. Has Rebellion done this? What about the Guess Racing LMP1? It might take some money, but I think it should be doable.

ALMS teams want a shot at victory, if a petrol car can be competitive (and that's what the new regs intention is), there's no reason to make IMSA specific changes. Should home cars be given a major performance advantage it would not only ruin the race, it would finally break any WEC/ALMS relationship and make the victory worthless. You also need to consider chassis and engines are designed to specific limits, some petrol teams were unwilling to take the small restrictor break handed to them prior to Le Mans, as engine reliability couldn't be guaranteed without further testing.

The WEC has seemingly allowed IMSA cars to run to their own rules at Sebring. If you look at the rules Dyson and even Muscle Milk were running at Laguna, they were quite different (and quite advantageous) relative to what they ran at Sebring and Petit. Obviously the suppliers are used to IMSAs changes. There was also some BoP (debatable, but an argument could be made for it) that IMSA doles out and I'm sure the team(s) that benefit from that would want that (coughDysoncough) at Sebring. As far as ruining the race or whatever, I don't think the teams care. They just want to win. If that means getting an "unfair" advantage, well, so be it. They have sponsors they want to please and so forth and Sebring and Petit are the two golden races.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'd suggest the whole purpose of NASCAR killing off the ALMS is to help............NASCAR. Should such a situation arise expect funding for GA to be reigned in, leaving it to stand or fall on it's own means. .

The team that NASCAR has placed to run Grand Am would suggest otherwise, and NASCAR is smarter as an organization than you give them credit for.

[Fogelhund]

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...izers-hit.html

There has to be some serious doubt as to whether there will be a race in Baltimore next year. Down to Eight races?

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...izers-hit.html

There has to be some serious doubt as to whether there will be a race in Baltimore next year. Down to Eight races?

It's not the first time in history of new street courses that the organizers are struggling, is it?

[WolfsburgRS]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'd suggest the whole purpose of NASCAR killing off the ALMS is to help............NASCAR. Should such a situation arise expect funding for GA to be reigned in, leaving it to stand or fall on it's own means.

Although I can see why NASCAR would want to either kill off or devalue (and then buy) IMSA, I can't say they'd let whatever the resulting series would be, die off or remain unsupported. In that vacuum some other challenger series or sanctioning body would be all-too-happy to step in and fill the void. The SCCA is always lurking and who knows what else might pop up as an heir to the throne...

[Danske]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

The SCCA is always lurking and who knows what else might pop up as an heir to the throne...

But the car was flashing its lights to warn him that Andy Evans was buying the series from the basement with a hook for a hand!

[Purist]

Guys, where is the WEC honestly going to run in North America if it's not with the ALMS? You would have to find a track that meets full FIA requirements (as this is the "FIA World Endurance Championship"), and said track would also have to be willing to pay the FIA sanction fee.

Even ignoring the sanction fee, which NONE of the independent tracks would be likely to want to pay, there is still a myriad of other issues.

1. I would rule out any track of less than 4.0km (~2.5mi) getting a WEC event. That eliminates Mid Ohio, Laguna Seca, Barber, Lime Rock, Portland, just about any street circuit, etc.

2. You can rule out any permanent circuit with potentially glaring run-off issues, not to mention things like high-speed, off-camber corners. That takes care of Sears Point, Mosport, Watkins Glen, Mont Tremblant, technically Sebring also, etc.

3. I'm suspicious that the successors to the LMP900s, and now the current generation of LMP1s, may well not be suitable for "rovals". The last time LMPs raced on them in the ALMS was 2001, in GA, it was 2002, and the FIA SCC did run Lausitzring in 2003. Still, that's too long for my liking, so I would want clarification on that one before we even consider Daytona, Homestead, or Fontana.

4. Montreal is only allowed the two weekends a year, and both those weekends are pretty full. Basically, NASCAR would have to leave, or at least dump GA from that weekend, for the WEC to possibly have a slot there.

5. Circuit of the Americas actually has to get built before any races can be held there.

6. New Jersey is a one-weekend-a-year street circuit for F1.

7. Mexico's homicide rate has tripled in the last 5-6 years, and is now as bad, or worse than, Brazil in terms of crime. And Mexico's violent, drug-related crime seems more widespread and gets a lot more attention than do Brazil's issues. Also, the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez may be considered to be lacking in certain areas now, as it's been a few years since all the other major series departed that venue.

As I see it, the two options that stand out to me as being particularly possible are Miller and the F1 "roval" at Indy (on grounds of fairly recent, pre-existing FIA Grade 1 clearance). So, how do either of those two options sound?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Purist

Guys, where is the WEC honestly going to run in North America if it's not with the ALMS? You would have to find a track that meets full FIA requirements (as this is the "FIA World Endurance Championship"), and said track would also have to be willing to pay the FIA sanction fee.

Even ignoring the sanction fee, which NONE of the independent tracks would be likely to want to pay, there is still a myriad of other issues.

1. I would rule out any track of less than 4.0km (~2.5mi) getting a WEC event. That eliminates Mid Ohio, Laguna Seca, Barber, Lime Rock, Portland, just about any street circuit, etc.

2. You can rule out any permanent circuit with potentially glaring run-off issues, not to mention things like high-speed, off-camber corners. That takes care of Sears Point, Mosport, Watkins Glen, Mont Tremblant, technically Sebring also, etc.

3. I'm suspicious that the successors to the LMP900s, and now the current generation of LMP1s, may well not be suitable for "rovals". The last time LMPs raced on them in the ALMS was 2001, in GA, it was 2002, and the FIA SCC did run Lausitzring in 2003. Still, that's too long for my liking, so I would want clarification on that one before we even consider Daytona, Homestead, or Fontana.

4. Montreal is only allowed the two weekends a year, and both those weekends are pretty full. Basically, NASCAR would have to leave, or at least dump GA from that weekend, for the WEC to possibly have a slot there.

5. Circuit of the Americas actually has to get built before any races can be held there.

6. New Jersey is a one-weekend-a-year street circuit for F1.

7. Mexico's homicide rate has tripled in the last 5-6 years, and is now as bad, or worse than, Brazil in terms of crime. And Mexico's violent, drug-related crime seems more widespread and gets a lot more attention than do Brazil's issues. Also, the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez may be considered to be lacking in certain areas now, as it's been a few years since all the other major series departed that venue.

As I see it, the two options that stand out to me as being particularly possible are Miller and the F1 "roval" at Indy (on grounds of fairly recent, pre-existing FIA Grade 1 clearance). So, how do either of those two options sound?

Road America. Far more than 4 km, has official FIA sanctioning to run LMP cars, fantastic track layout...

[Speed-King]

I'm suspicious that the successors to the LMP900s, and now the current generation of LMP1s, may well not be suitable for "rovals". The last time LMPs raced on them in the ALMS was 2001, in GA, it was 2002, and the FIA SCC did run Lausitzring in 2003. Still, that's too long for my liking, so I would want clarification on that one before we even consider Daytona, Homestead, or Fontana.

Audi usually test their LMPs at Lausitz, so I don't think that'd be that much of a problem.

[TF110]

Texas could work (if it stays alive), so could NJ with the success (hopefully) of the F1 race there. Road America is a great track, but I'd say its facilities need updating to compete with the big wigs, but the racing may draw appeal rather than it's flashiness.

[Purist]

The FIA clearances are different for testing than for racing. Yes, Audi has used the test oval at Lausitzring (the site of Michele Alboreto's crash, btw), but there's no way in hell that there would be a LMS or WEC race held there.

Also, maximum banking on the 2.0-mile Eurospeedway oval at the Lausitzring doesn't exceed 6 degrees. Indianapoolis is just over 9, with Fontana at 14, Homestead at 18-20, and Daytona at a whopping 31 degrees in the corners.

Like most existing North American road courses, Road America gets cut some slack because it has, fairly consistently, hosted prototype and GT racing for quite some time. However, this would be an official FIA series. Therefore, requirements will be stiffer, and Road America definitely would be considered to have "glaring run-off issues" by European standards. And with the hillsides being what they are at that circuit, there's no practical way to do anything about those issues. Thus, I wouldn't assume that even Road America would pass muster for the FIA WEC.

The funny/sad thing is, any fully-FIA-sanctioned series that requires the top level of Grade 2 licensure may well have "safetied" itself right out of being able to race in North America. BTW, WTCC just requires a Grade 3 circuit, so Sears Point works since it has some level of Grade 2 license.

BTW, last time I checked more thoroghly, FIA GT1 and FIA GT2 were higher up on the list than LMP1 and LMP2 in terms of circuit license requirements. That is, the old FIA GT series, and the FIA GT1 series, had more stringent restrictions on circuits they could use than does the LMS, ALMS, or ILMC. This also explains, for instance, why the FIA GT(1) series have run Paul Ricard with a chicane in the Mistral, while the LMS has not used any such chicane.

[Speed-King]

Especially this year, the officially FIA-sanctioned GT1-World Championship has run on such an array of crap tracks, that I would be surprised if track grades was what did the WEC in in the US.

If the manufacturers have an interest to race there, they'll go there and find a place to do so...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Purist

BTW, last time I checked more thoroghly, FIA GT1 and FIA GT2 were higher up on the list than LMP1 and LMP2 in terms of circuit license requirements. That is, the old FIA GT series, and the FIA GT1 series, had more stringent restrictions on circuits they could use than does the LMS, ALMS, or ILMC. This also explains, for instance, why the FIA GT(1) series have run Paul Ricard with a chicane in the Mistral, while the LMS has not used any such chicane.

.. and yet FIA GT strongly pursued Mosport a couple of years ago, but they couldn't agree on the sanction.

[pdxracefan]

Originally Posted by AGD

If we judge the situation on the basis of the Petit/Bahrain situation, the ACO seems to have very little in terms of good long-term strategic planning.

But, anyway, Panoz does not have to let the WEC race at Sebring if he does not want to. If the ALMS becomes too much of a lead balloon, Panoz may have no choice but to sell Sebring or make a deal with the WEC/NASCAR/whoever. So we'll see. I think the ACO must be preparing to race in North America in 2013 at some place besides Sebring. That might be Daytona, Watkins Glen, or some other NASCAR owned or aided circuit.

Sell what? He doesn't own the track. It's owned by the Sebring Airport Authority. The Don holds a lease to the track. Expiration date: unknown by me.

[TF110]

@Purist, could that be because of braking distances by LMPs compared to GT1's? They are much lighter with around equal hp. A GT car with 600hp can reach high speeds, but braking distances would be very high slowing from 300kmh, a prototype would be much better in braking areas. And with GTE, top speeds are limited because hp doesn't exceed 500. Am I correct in assuming this may be a reason for track choice and run-off area? Road America's long straights are followed by run offs, but they aren't paved. I'm sure they can change that though, and the worst is the kink on the 3rd flat out section, I don't know how they'd fix that. But the other corners are fine with minor pavement and some pushing back of the fence with more tire barriers.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

7. Mexico's homicide rate has tripled in the last 5-6 years, and is now as bad, or worse than, Brazil in terms of crime. And Mexico's violent, drug-related crime seems more widespread and gets a lot more attention than do Brazil's issues. Also, the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez may be considered to be lacking in certain areas now, as it's been a few years since all the other major series departed that venue.

I still think Mexico still has a pretty decent chance due to it being a rare North American market for Peugeot. It's also a significant market for VAG and even Renault. Ok, we know about the drug fueled crime in Mexico near the US border, but is the crime growth really all that significant in Mexico City? I'm not saying that Mexico City is Geneva or anything, but it might not be as bad as the stereotypes of Mexico as a whole. Plus, they'll get a crowd of significance as long as Adrian Fernandez is in the show.

Also, I think Audi tests at Homestead, yes? That does not mean it is an appropriate racing venue, but it is a high bank track. Anyway, if FIA-NASCAR really wants to put a WEC race on US soil, I'm sure it can be done. It's not like ISC is opposed to putting useless chicanes on their road courses or anything.

Originally Posted by pdxracefan

Sell what? He doesn't own the track. It's owned by the Sebring Airport Authority. The Don holds a lease to the track. Expiration date: unknown by me.

Right, sell may not be the appropriate term, but perhaps there is a way for Don to monetize the agreement.

[Fogelhund]

Panoz can sell the Lease agreement.

[Purist]

The kinetic energy involved whether it was a GT1 or LMP1 wasn't all that different. Besides, the key component in determining run-off size is terminal velocity at the end of the straight, which puts the ball in the court of the LMP1s. Also, if that braking distance theory was the practice, why do F1 tracks have such ridiculous amounts of run-off compared to every other circuit out there? So, no, I'd say it's an ego/prestige thing of the FIA being able to put their own categories first and make them seem more "exclusive".

Road America has added some extra tarmac, but if anything, it's made the stupid antics, particularly in the Nationwide race, even worse. Also, paved run-offs don't do a damn thing for a car with impaired steering/braking, as we saw with the two virtually head-on impacts in this year's Sprint Cup race at Watkins Glen. The cars just rolled right on into the barriers without losing much speed at all.

A gravel bed, at least when set up properly (enough depth and large enough granule size), does wonders for abating speed, even with single-seaters. Adrian Fernandez was slowed substantially by the Turn 4 gravel trap at Mid Ohio, when his throttle stuck during the 2001 CART race there. And the Canada Corner gravel bed at Road America brought Greg Moore's wild ride to a halt during the CART race back in 1996.

As for run-off space at Road America, the Kink and the Carousel have some issues by European standards. As for Turns 1 and 12, I think the hills, or drip-offs, are going to make adding more room impractical. The Turn 1 gravel trap needs more depth, and larger granules of rock. I really don't care if it causes a full-course caution, so long as the gravel bed stops, or at least significantly slows, the cars.

It isn't up to ISC or SMI as to whether the track is considered suitable. For an FIA-specific event, any track not holding that level of license already must be inspected by Charlie Whiting and his team. No, Charlie does NOT just do F1 circuits. Remember, he inspected the Sao Paolo street circuit ahead of the 2010 IndyCar series event there.

As for Mexico City, there's plenty of cartel presence, with quite a few assassinations of federal officials having taken place there. And just in general, you don't want to be a well-to-do foreigner in the more shady parts of the world, as it makes you a particularly juicy target. All the major Mexican cities have seen substantial violence related to the "war on drugs", and even the tourist section of Cancun hasn't been entirely spared.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

So, no, I'd say it's an ego/prestige thing of the FIA being able to put their own categories first and make them seem more "exclusive".

It isn't up to ISC or SMI as to whether the track is considered suitable. For an FIA-specific event, any track not holding that level of license already must be inspected by Charlie Whiting and his team. No, Charlie does NOT just do F1 circuits. Remember, he inspected the Sao Paolo street circuit ahead of the 2010 IndyCar series event there.

Well, there is a rumored NASCAR-FIA relationship that is supposedly getting warm and bubbly. If so, what would be the point if FIA series can't race at ISC tracks? It's not like ISC is going to make multi-million dollar renovations just for the FIA's B and C tier of European series. So is it possible that the FIA says "meh, do whatever" to the bulk of track standards if they find a track they find suitable in the US? As they say, money talks. Power talks too, but I guess that cuts both ways when you talk about NASCAR/ISC and the FIA.

[AGD]

In other news, Level 5 has ordered two new ARX-03b chassis. I'm not sure what they are going to do with the ARX-01gs. Is there any chance that those were loaned to Level 5 by HPD?

It looks like Level 5 still isn't fully committed to either the ALMS or WEC yet, but we'll have to see. Is there any chance that they could take an overall win or two next year if they put in a pretty decent effort in the ALMS? I guess a lot of it depends on what Muscle Milk brings to the track.

http://www.americanlemans.com/primar...cat=news|16436