Forum Etiquette

[EERO]

I wanted to post this thread because I am more than a little concerned with the current tone of the Formula 1 Forum, and though I don't visit some of the other Forums, regularly. I know that these issues are not unique to the Formula 1 Forum.. There are a lot of things that we, as a comunity need to hash out and I see this as a way to start. There is a general policy here to attack the post, and not the poster, but rather than merely pay lip service to that phrase, I'd like everyone to REALLY consider what that means from both sides of the arguement. Not only does it mean that you argue with ideas, but it means that if your ideas are questioned, you must understand that you as an individual are not under attack. Do not respond to a debate as though your honour and good name have been smeared if they haven't been.

What we all need to realize here, is that we are a community. We HAVE to find a way to get along with one another much as people within any other society must. Though few of us ever meet-though this commonwheal exists only in the ether-we are all real people with real feelings and we have the capacity to be offended and insulted and misunderstood. The welcoming character of this place is what drew me to it originally. I appreciated the honesty and the fairness of the manner in which people dealt with one another. I think its still there, but too many people write without considering the power of their words and too many people bristle at a perceived insult. In the real world, were we all so volatile, the streets would run red.

I often use the analogy about Ten Tenths that it is a giant cocktail party, hosted by Craig. He has graciously opened his doors for us to mingle in HIS house and it is up to all of us to behave. Some of us are old friends, and others are gregarious newcomers who quickly make themselves at home. Others are quieter, but seek out serious conversaton at the periphery, enjoying the spirited swirl at the center, but wishing to converse with a depth not appropriate to the general Forum. But recalling that we are all guests here, we must strive to behave in Craig's home, as we would wish strangers to behave in our own homes.


So, we are a society. We cannot be friends with everyone, be we CAN treat everyone with respect. This includes not hectoring people who disagree with you, not impugning people's morality, not insulting people, not winding up in anger where no insult was intended, not posting topics intended solely to wind up the vocal champions of a particular cause, and not misquoting people deliberately. Ironicly, its on this latter point, that I have been hoisted by my own petard. I plead guilty, having been offended by the signature of a fairly new member of the board whom I believed was attempting to rewrite the history of this place without his being questioned by anyone. I should have known that the thread would escalate into one of those unresolvable Pro/Anti threads. I claim guilt, and I am sorry to have started this.

However, let me repeat. We are all MEMBERS here and we are all worthy of respect.

Several additional points have arisen from the Donneybrooke in the Formula One Forum that I think should be clarified. For correspondence about the board, I use the PM system. It keeps all the Ten Tenths items in one place and doesn't clog my email. If you do not wish to recieve Email from Ten Tenth's members, turn off that option in your user preferences. But leave the PM system open. All conflicts between members should be addressed off the General forum, through private correspondence, either PM's or Email. If you feel you need help from the staff, ask for it, it will be willingly and readily given.

When quoting a post by another member, edit it, don't paste in the entire post, but only those portions relevant to the point you wish to make. Also, try to use the quote function as it makes the items quoted stand out and it is easier for subsequent readers to determmine which are your words and which belong to Moffat, (for example)
Take the time to read the thread-know who said what.

Finally, this place is in some perverse way, like a home to me, and I care about it and all of you deeply and I am very troubled by the animosity that is so pervasive now. I also know that I am not alone in these feelings and that I have every confidence that we can all make this the kind of place that we all enjoy visiting. I work very hard to control what I say here. I know that words written down in anger are more difficult to take back than an off-hand aside at a party. I work hard to be fair and honest-and it isn't easy because I know in the real world, I'm a pain-in-the-ass, have a volatile temper and am largely, a misanthrope. To most of my peers and co-workers, I am moody, cranky, *****y, arrogant, opinionated and catty-and that's to the ones I call my friends.

Anyway, the point of that confession is that we have to watch what we say here, because people are "hearing" what we have "said", often days after we said it.

[Inigo Montoya]

Amen. Thanks EERO!

[strad]

Right On!!

[f1manoz]

*loud applause*

Brilliant EERO. And it all had to be said too.

[StuiE]

it seems to be time to clean up, the same thing are being said, in Fast fours Forums


good stuff EERO

[Miss Hardt]

This makes sense

[Raoul Duke]

I agree with Eero to a certain extent. However it must be said that there are certain members in the F1 forum who make no effort at all to be pleasant or agreable with other members. After a while I just have a tendency to get fed up with the same old drivel being posted over and over again by certain members. I agree that the forum has gone downhill recently and that we should all make an effort to clean up and make this place more enoyable for everyone. But there are still people who make this an extremely difficult concept to adhere to. If they make no effort to show us respect, then why should we show them respect in return.

[StuiE]

here is the Thread on FFFs if ne1 wanted to see

[Airhead]

I agree with the points raised in EERO's essay on etiquitte, and any other French words that sound really sexy when your drunk.

I have been a casual observer on the F1 Forum, and can see that some people have developed arguments that are well reasoned but extremely hard edged. I don't have a problem with that, but others obviously do. People need to realise that sometimes this is the way a fellow member of the forum gets their kicks. It is to me an advanced form of baiting.
But does not break the forum rules. The protagonist can then sit back and watch the mayhem as the gullible launch into an ataack that then breaks most of the forum rules.

Notice I said 'it is to me', not 'it is me', the inclusion of the word advanced should rule me out!

So, what to do. Well settle down and take a deep breath, then reread the offending post (the one that annoys so well) before tempting a reply. If you can't reply within the rules. Umm, don't reply.

Plus, enjoy yourselves, have a laugh. Lord knows I do.

[Sato san]

Well said EERO .

IT NEEDED SAYING !

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Raoul Duke
I agree with Eero to a certain extent. However it must be said that there are certain members in the F1 forum who make no effort at all to be pleasant or agreable with other members. After a while I just have a tendency to get fed up with the same old drivel being posted over and over again by certain members. I agree that the forum has gone downhill recently and that we should all make an effort to clean up and make this place more enoyable for everyone. But there are still people who make this an extremely difficult concept to adhere to. If they make no effort to show us respect, then why should we show them respect in return.

Your right Raoul, it is all of our responsibility to clean this up. As for the second part of your post, we can't control what others are doing but we can control what we say ourselves. If everyone did this we would'nt have a problem.

To all the good members we have (and lets face it - thats 98%) ignore the posts that are flame bait. If you see a post that is inappropriate, or a fellow member doing the wrong thing, use the warn button or send a Private message to the moderator of that forum. Ultimately, they will be weeded out.

Originally posted by EERO
I often use the analogy about Ten Tenths that it is a giant cocktail party, hosted by Craig. He has graciously opened his doors for us to mingle in HIS house and it is up to all of us to behave. Some of us are old friends, and others are gregarious newcomers who quickly make themselves at home. Others are quieter, but seek out serious conversaton at the periphery, enjoying the spirited swirl at the center, but wishing to converse with a depth not appropriate to the general Forum. But recalling that we are all guests here, we must strive to behave in Craig's home, as we would wish strangers to behave in our own homes.

Thanks EERO. This was put to me very early in my time at ten-tenths. And quiet frankly, Craig tolerates alot more in his home than I would in mine. Its' easy to mouth off from the other side of a computer screen, and very easy to disrespect someone that has no face or name.

When replying to a post, how would you reply of they were a friend of yours, and right in front of you. I'm sure it would be very different. If not, it's no wonder some of these people are sitting on a computer instead of interacting with real friends.

I have no doubt most of us love this place, so if we want the door to stay open, lets try a little harder.

Regards,



Wrex

[Hugh Jarce]

It was a long read - but I agree.

I haven't been a member for that long but I stopped logging on for a time because there was so much whinging. There's enough in life as it is - you just don't need it here as well!

I value this forum. I have just got back from a two week business trip in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam of all places.

I haven't a clue who half of you are but it was great at the end of a hard day's work to go down to the local internet cafe - pay my 10,000 Dong (no rude remarks) and see the familiar names and get the latest news and views.

EERO - Do you work for the diplomatic service by any chance or are you a church pastor?!

[Champ69]

I agree, and it is good to see that people have been having the same feelings as me.

This is a great place, and I intend to do my bit to keep it that way.

[Tristan]

It's just manners. That's all it is. With a bit of common sense.

Ny swan, EERO. As someone who commands a huge amount of respect around here, it had to take someone in your position to stand up and say something.

[Sato san]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce

I value this forum.

I haven't a clue who half of you are but it was great at the end of a hard day's work to go down to the local internet cafe - pay my 10,000 Dong (no rude remarks) and see the familiar names and get the latest news and views.

what a great remark , although i dont need to log on from anywhere other than home , but i totally agree , at the end of a hard day , turn on the pc or laptop and sit on 10 10ths for a hour .

[Bibendum]

Nicely put, EERO, and a very welcome intervention.

The character of an 'internet community' is interesting, because one *does* feel deeply engaged in many ways. At the same time, we can only present a rather select and potentially monomaniacal version of ourselves, so conscious adjustments in tone and focus become necessary.

More than that, because we don't have all the usual channels of feedback from the people we're addressing, or the social sanctions that we might expect if we were arbitrarily rude in our daily lives, it is all the more crucial that we attend to the issue of manners (or, simply, respect for the other), of measuredness, of making sure one's commentary is pertinent and not nasty, and so on.

I look forward to participating more in the F1 forum, and have already found a substantial reserve, there, of really interesting insight, provocative questioning, and historical knowledge. If the proportion of this to the dross can be increased, so much the better!

Best to all,
Bibendum

[paulzinho]

Thanks for this EEROs, something needed to be done and hopefully people will pay attention to this thread and the guilty parties adjust their behaviour accordingly.

[Liz]

Eero, your words are well spoken and to the point as always. However, I think you're preaching to the choir, as the persons at fault never see themselves as being at fault. A villain is not a villain in his own eyes.

Someone speaking about television (and specifically about the new Ozzy Osbourn Family show) the other day said "Television is a way to invite into your home people you would never invite into your home." I think the Internet is the same way. There are two people currently posting on this board that I would not invite to a party I was giving, and one of them seems to have the irresistable urge to post long diatribes (which is different from dialogues) and then jeer at people who become upset at what he has said. This used to be called "pressing the hot button", which I think is the same as "winding people up." In the pub it could be called "incitement to riot."

For myself there are certain subjects upon which I simply can't be "objective" and it doesn't take much to set me off in a rage. The answer to this dilemma in a perfect world would be for people to avoid twitting me about these subjects. Unfortunately I have no control over what other people do except an appeal to their better nature -- and even more unfortunately, some people HAVE no better nature. In that case the best thing for me to do is to stay out of the discussion completely -- which leads to the impression that I agree with the diatribe. "Silence implies consent."

So what is the answer? In one case it was "put that person on ignore" because in that case the person has said nothing I care to read or discuss. In the other case not so; that person occasionally says very interesting and useful things -- but generally he seems to be here to cast the apple of discord and then jump in to stir the pot when it looks like going off the boil. Efforts to avoid him are futile; he is everywhere.

What can be done? I have no idea. But for now I think I will just have to avoid all threads in which his name appears. And if you have similar difficulties with anyone on the Board, including me, maybe you can try to do the same.

[Craig]

Don't forget that there is an ignore function on this forum if you find yourself continually getting worked up over some other person's posts....

[Bononi]

Wise words EERO, as usual. Thanks.

People should read it carefully, and start to behave, before me and WREX start shooting our guns !!

[EERO]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce

EERO - Do you work for the diplomatic service by any chance or are you a church pastor?!

My mother would fall off her chair laughing...err, no. But thanks Hugh and to everyone else for their kind words.

Originally posted by Liz
... for now I think I will just have to avoid all threads in which his name appears. And if you have similar difficulties with anyone on the Board, including me, maybe you can try to do the same.

Never in a million years, My Dear. Never

As for the ignore function, its not a luxury Mods can enjoy.

[Splatz the Cow]

"Pleasant to read, extremely well written, and couldn't have come at a better time. ***** 5 out of 5 stars."

The Splatz Express.



I understand 100% and will be sure to put as much thought and care in to what I write as was obvious in your comments EERO, thanks for placing your words so well.

Hey, and in the end, the bettere we choose our words, the better we are understood.

Splatz the Cow.

[Neil C]

Thanks, EERO. It needed to be said, and none better to say it.

Although F1 is by far my favorite flavor of the sport, my contributions to that forum have been few and far between lately, and the reason is the problem cited here.

A couple years ago when I was fairly new, I lodged a complaint in general regarding the nasty tone of some posters and threads. I received a terse but reasonable response from our friend Catman, who said, in effect, "who is being hurt by such posts?", and "we should be free to speak our minds as we see fit".

I disagree for one reason. In economics (eyes glaze over, try to stay with me here), there is an axiom that bad currency drives good currency out of circulation. The same happens here. In theory there should be room for thoughtful discussion and those that want to rip and whine everyone and everything. But what happens is that the reasonable people looking for a good friendly place to play have to wade through piles of crud to find an interesting topic, only to have that topic degenerate into a train wreck by the flamers.

It doesn't take long before the time and effort to find thought provoking discourse becomes more than it is worth to someone who values their leisure time. The reasonable voices gradually fade away, and only the noise is left.

10/10's is by no means the worst. In fact, it is the best I've seen. I've seen other discussion forums completely shut down because they've degenerated into a vile stew of hate and acrimony. We want to keep that from happening here.

There is a difference between being provocative and being a provocateur. Those that don't understand the subtle difference should not attempt it! Of course most of those that provoke know exactly what they are doing and what results they can expect.

Finally, Liz is right. We are preaching to the choir because the worst offenders are not likely to even read this thread seriously or believe it applies to them. "The hunchback always notices the hump on the other hunchback".

Still, I have faith in the moderators of this forum. These things go in cycles, and I'm sure before long we will again have a forum of which we can all be proud.

[Speedworx]

That was well put together EERO.

[El_Gibleto]

A simple "non-provocetive" question, will the rules be aplied equally to all members, and equal punishment for any transgressions. Or will has what has happened before continue, whereby, certain "favoured" members are allowed to post whatever they like freely and with total disregard to the rules, because they belong to a "inner circle"?

As George Owell said "all animals are equal, some are more equal than others"