PRC Signatures

[stephen0183]

What is the lowest grade of marshal that can sign the PRC card for attendance at an event?

On Sunday, there was just me (a trainee) and a track marshal on post and we weren't sure if we could sign each other's cards (in the end, we didn't).

It was the first time I'd been in that situation, so wasn't sure what to do!

Ta

[kipper]

The actual grade isn't material. If a marshal has been allocated the duties of post chief then they can sign attendence cards. I've lost track of the number that I have signed despite having a track grade.

[Guinness2702]

AIUI, the senior marshal on post, i.e. whoever is acting as post chief can sign it. it's only for attendance, and not an assessment. I'm graded Experienced, and I've signed cards on a dozen or so occasions, when I've been acting as post chief. The senior marshal on post would probably have to get the chief marshal to do it - I don't believe you can simply sign each other's cards.

[Dave Brand]

Grade isn't too relevant - the person acting as Post Chief can sign cards for others on post. Normal practice is for the PC's card to be signed by the chief marshal, a clerk or someone in a similar position.

Edit: must learn to type faster!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by kipper

If a marshal has been allocated the duties of post chief then they can sign attendence cards. I've lost track of the number that I have signed despite having a track grade.

I don't think you actually have to be allocated officially as post chief. I've done plenty of undermanned meetings with no official PC on post and have assumed the role as flaggie / most experienced on post.

[numbersix]

It's only confirmation that you were present on the day, signed by someone on post who was witness to that fact.

On the basis that someone is acting as the Post Chief (i.e. the most experienced person on post), he or she could sign your card. Or anyone on post with you.

When I'm Observing, I usually ask the senior flag-person or the I/O to do it for my card.

As for comments, you can actually add your own comments - or have comments added by the senior person on post/Post Chief as evidence that you have attended an incident or done some other heroic deed, such as supplying doughnuts!

[Pete LMC]

Originally Posted by numbersix

It's only confirmation that you were present on the day, signed by someone on post who was witness to that fact.

As previously stated, as far as I am aware anyone that is on Post with you can sign your card, it is purely proof of attendance at a particular meeting / event.

[Steven Humphrey]

I agree that anyone can sign for attendance but I think they have to be MSA registered. I know most people are but I have come across a couple of old hands who have never registered!

[Dave Brand]

. . . and while we're on the subject, may I draw your attention to this excerpt from the document which introduced the current grading scheme:

"NOTE Before handing in a card for signature at an event or training day, complete the details so that the person signing just has to add their signature."

Thank you for your cooperation. . .

[Justin Moran]

I have taken to telling the guys and gals on post that Dave, it does save time and any confusion as to duty on the day, I have been lucky enough to have been on post with six flaggies and only four incident marshals! Very confusing at initial briefing, but that dont take much!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

"NOTE Before handing in a card for signature at an event or training day, complete the details so that the person signing just has to add their signature."

Have done that from day one........just put my monicker on and let the cardholder fill in the details!

[Steven Humphrey]

There's a good FAQ article on upgrading in this months BMMC S Mids newsletter, which also has some bits about signatures. Link here http://www.marshals.co.uk/resources/70989684579.pdf

[alimcb]

I wouldn't think it matters too much unless you're intending to upgrade with the minimum number of signatures, which you probably shouldn't be doing anyway.

[stephen0183]

If only I'd seen that article in the South Mids newsletter before last weekend!

I'm not rushing for signatures as even though I'm fast approaching my 10th signed for day, I don't feel like I've dealt with enough incidents yet to be confident enough for an upgrade.

[Guinness2702]

I'm assuming you're looking at trainee -> track. I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you've done 10 days, and you're not hapless, then you should have a reasonable feel for what's going on, be able to keep yourself safe, which is the main thing. I remember when I'd done about the same, and I had a couple of PCs and I/Os say - "10 days - you're practically an expert" or something along those lines. Also, IME, PCs don't ask "what's your grade," they ask "how many days have you done". Going for the 'experienced' grade is something you should be a little more cautious about.

[alimcb]

Guinness, I need to disagree with you here. If we always had at least 3 or 4 marshals on every post, what you say would be correct.

The problem is at some meetings numbers are so short than anyone with a Track grade could be asked to flag and observe, on a post by themselves all day. This has happened to me several times but thankfully I had over a year's experience when it first happened. It was still slightly daunting though (now I actually quite enjoy it).

I also found that I was being asked to look after trainees as soon as I got my Track grade. If you've only done a dozen or so days yourself, are you really able to look after a trainee on their first or second day?

Keeping your Trainee grade gives you protection against getting asked to do too much too soon. By all means collect the signatures - it's good evidence when you do go for upgrade - but build in a margin for error and don't do it before you are ready to take on all the jobs you might get asked to do.

In reality, Experienced grade only serves as a stepping stone to the more senior grades - Flag, IO or Post Chief. It makes it more likely of course that you'll get asked to do one (or all) of these jobs if numbers are short, but you still get asked to do these jobs sometimes even with just a Track grade.

Hence, my opinion is that Trainee to Track is the more important of the two, although neither of them should be rushed through.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by alimcb

anyone with a Track grade could be asked to flag and observe, on a post by themselves all day. This has happened to me several times but thankfully I had over a year's experience when it first happened. It was still slightly daunting though (now I actually quite enjoy it).

This happened to my while I was still a trainee (with one trainee at about the same level on incident duty). It was also only the second time I had flagged, and having been told not to worry about blues the first time, it was the first time I had used the blue flag, so I don't agree with you that 'track' leads to this.

Originally Posted by alimcb

In reality, Experienced grade only serves as a stepping stone to the more senior grades - Flag, IO or Post Chief. It makes it more likely of course that you'll get asked to do one (or all) of these jobs if numbers are short, but you still get asked to do these jobs sometimes even with just a Track grade.

Hence, my opinion is that Trainee to Track is the more important of the two, although neither of them should be rushed through.

I've always thought of it the other way around. I always thought that 'track' meant that you were basically experienced, such that you don't have to have your hand held, but still have plenty to learn. 'experienced' on the other hand, to me at least, means that you've been around the block enough that you can handle pretty much anything you have to deal with (I'm not suggesting that you know it all, but that you can get on with it without anyone more experienced / senior, when the occasion calls for it).

'track' marshals should never be left without somebody more knowledgeable* to lean on, as their knowledge isn't complete. 'experienced' marshals should know enough that they only require advice for the very unusual.

* - On a post that is, I'm not talking about individual pairings. I realise it's not an ideal world, and sometimes they are asked to do more, but this is the level I think it indicates.

[Sticker Rub]

Your grade is only a guide to your abilities & experience.

I upgraded to green about 4 years ago & have more than enough signatures / training days to go for an upgrade to experienced. I've always worked on the basis of "if you're experienced, you're expected to be able to stand in as I/O", and for that reason, I've held off upgrading. Not because I don't feel confident I could cope with the role but because I seem to be in possession of an anti-magnetic & have actually had very few significant incidents in my time on the bank.

As it happens, I have been asked to I/O, based on being the most experienced marshal on post & I've always been happy to do so because the PC acknowledges my lower grade & supports me in the role. I'll go for my upgrade eventually but I'm in no rush & my grade makes no difference to my enjoyment of the day. The important thing is that you're aware & confident of your own abilities.

There's no shame in saying your not comfortable or you don't know how do something. I have far more respect for marshals that have told me that than those that know everything & know nothing.

[Clive]

I've been marshalling over 25 years and I wouldn't pretend to know it all, although I would hope I know a lot, and can share that with those with less experience

As an Examining Observer and who almost always is Post Chief these days, I like to know who is experienced on my post and how much they have, and will always try and pair up those with a lot with those with less, or none. (Or delegate to the IO when there is one.)

On those days when numbers are low, then people may be asked to do something they haven't done before, or have little experience of, but I will watch out for them and help 'train' on the job where possible.

I know a lot of other observers operate similarly.

[Ubique]

Guinness, I have to agree with Alimcb on this one mate. As an I/O, I need to know how much experience each of my team has and always endeavor to place the experienced guys with those with less. However, this isn't always possible meaning that if the highest grade I have on post is track then they will find themselves looking after trainees. Now obviously this can lead to having a trainee with more days on the bank than the track marshal but as the track guy has been assessed as competent on their upgrade then I have to trust that they know what they are doing.

I really don't like seeing trainees going for upgrade with the minimum number of signatures as I feel that in most cases they simply are not experienced enough after 10 meetings and would like to see a minimum length of time in each grade before you are eligble for upgrade so that people don't rush through the grades. One of the problems with the current system is that an attendance signature is considered as the same as an upgrade which is why if I sign a card I always put Attendance Only if the person has not done enough in my opinion to have earned an upgrade signature. Although it must be said that the new 2 day assessment has gone someway to helpng weed out those people not ready for upgrading.

In my opinion the upgrade from Trainee to Track is the most important of all of the upgrades as it shows that you are now a qualified marshal and should have sufficient knowledge to be able to do the job with a minimum amount of supervision. As a wise old Examining Observer once told me every day marshaling is a leaning day and a marshal who thinks they know it all is a danger to themselves and others. I have always remembered that advice and now as I/O I always try to do some training with everyone on post structured to their current grade and any upgrade they are going for, obviously if I have a lot of trainees on post they will take up the largest percentage of my time meaning that it may not always be possible to do more than welfare checks and quick chats with the rest of the team which is why I think you should only upgrade when you are confident that you can do the job. In an ideal world we should all be able to do the job of the guy 1 grade above us and 1 grade below but there will be meetings where as a track marshal you might need to go 2 grades above (I/O) or even 3 (PC).

The advice I give all trainees is take your time and don't be tempted to upgrade straight away. It's far better to be a trainee longer than to upgrade and end up in a situation you are not capable of handling.

[The Fat Clerk]

My feelings are probably controversial. There are Marshals with no badge / white badge who I'd hand pick for my 'dream team' and people with all sorts of badges who are not welcome. Discuss

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

My feelings are probably controversial. There are Marshals with no badge / white badge who I'd hand pick for my 'dream team' and people with all sorts of badges who are not welcome. Discuss

I agree with you

On more occasions than I'd like to think of, I've seen this on the bank. It's finding out who can "walk the walk" not "talk the talk", but unfortunately it requires an incident to find this out!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

I remember when I'd done about the same, and I had a couple of PCs and I/Os say - "10 days - you're practically an expert" or something along those lines.

Maybe you need to explore the concept of irony!

[numbersix]

If people talk to me about upgrades I mention a personal rule of thumb. It has no particular validity but it's worth a note.

I found that in the old system of upgrading (10 sigs from an Examining Observer on the basis of you actually doing something) it frequently resulted in doing approximately 25 days at each level before you got your upgrade.

It's just a rule of thumb, but when I ask people how much experience they have, I have this rule in the back of my mind. So if someone's done 50 races even though he/she might still be a green badge, as far as I'm concerned they get a battlefield promotion to red on the day, if I'm short of reds (i.e. normally).

For many people, 20 to 25 races represents a full year, and as there is usually a requirement to have two training sessions, one year apart, this seems to work automatically.

It's only a very rough rule of thumb and doesn't take into account that there are some marshals who have a natural talent towards learning and can be well up to speed, and confident, before this time. Meanwhile there are others, as noted by the fat clerk, who may have done 50 races without learning anything.

[The Fat Clerk]

It's the way of the world.
I frequently teach @ work, some people get it first time, most get it second or third, and some just get promoted..........................