[Multi 21] Ricciardo vs Vettel 2014

[kartincolin]

If anyone were to take a passing glance at the results from today`s race, they automatically deduce that Ricciardo finished somewhere between 6 to 7 seconds ahead of Vettel and as such had the better of him throughout the whole race. However, those who actually took it upon themselves to watch the race will know that this doesn`t tell the whole story.

- Vettel has the upper hand over Ricciardo, outqualifies him by 3 tenths.
- Vettel P5 at the end of the first stint, Ricciardo P12
- Red Bull pit Vettel before anybody else in te field to undercut Magnussen. They undercut Kevin but it dictated that Seb would have to preserve his tyres for the next 30 laps.
- Red Bull left Ricciardo out 7 laps longer, Dan makes some great moves to come through the pack whilst Seb`s tyres fall off the cliff about 5 laps from the end.
- Seb defends but it is to no avail and Ricciardo gets past and drives off into the distance.

Vettel has endured a torrid time in 2014, but I have no doubt whatsoever that he will be back to his best in the not too distant future. All great champions endure a difficult spell, and Seb has had the discipline and the humility to quietly work away to resolve his issues.

Meanwhile, Hamilton and Rosberg, enjoying a significant car advantage over the rest of the field, are constantly whinging to the media about the adversiy that tey have had to overcome.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Just as it seems that Vettel has the edge, Ricciardo beats him anyway! Awesome pass. The more I see this guy, the more I like him.

But I think that the RBR is better than most people credit, whilst Seb's season has been woeful.

I think Ricciardo knows he has the advantage in races (better racer, better tyre management, more composed, less mistakes) so maybe doesn't try to optimise the car for qualifying trim? I think he'll still try to improve his qualifying though, if he knows it wouldn't be setting up for a bad race car.

As for the Red Bulls being better than most people give credit, I think it's pretty obvious the RB is the best chassis. For the past few years, it's downforce, stability(braking) and traction have been the best, and it seems this year's car continues that trend. The engine lacks ultimate power compared to Mercedes (maybe not as much as the RB team say ) and it doesn't have the best top speed, but it's chassis virtues make me think that the car gets to it's top speed quicker than other cars get to theirs, and so is running at it's top speed for longer.

I didn't notice a Red Bull being "easy-meat" on the straights at Monza today.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kartincolin

- Vettel P5 at the end of the first stint, Ricciardo P12
- Red Bull pit Vettel before anybody else in te field to undercut Magnussen. They undercut Kevin but it dictated that Seb would have to preserve his tyres for the next 30 laps.
- Red Bull left Ricciardo out 7 laps longer, Dan makes some great moves to come through the pack whilst Seb`s tyres fall off the cliff about 5 laps from the end.
- Seb defends but it is to no avail and Ricciardo gets past and drives off into the distance.

Dan's race pace, particularly on the harder tyres has been consistently about half a second quicker than Seb, while also being easier on the tyres.
Dan was about 8 seconds behind during the first stint and after stopping Seb couldn't get it out past about 10 seconds despite Dan running around in 25 lap old tyres.

As soon as Dan stopped, he started reeling them all in at about .5+ per lap and caught Seb, despite having to overtake about 6 cars, well before Seb's tyres reached any cliff. He didn't just catch them all right at the end.

10 seconds behind to 10 seconds in front in about 30 laps is pretty consistent with quite a few other races, and Red Bull are running out of "new" chassis to give Seb!

[Razzzor]

I don't think Sebs tyres ever really hit the wall. Pitting Dan late was the wrong strategy imo, it meant he had to pass all those cars with the disadvantage of the Renault on a track that, while isn't the hardest to pass on, also isn't the easiest. That should have killed his tyres sitting behind them all trying to pass. But he passed them all, including Vettel and pulled a big margin. Very good drive from Dan.

Remember the last race where it was Dan left out to do a long final stint while Vettel pitted for fresh rubber? Dan was still faster on the old tyres by the end and Vettel didn't close in.

I think if they early-pitted Dan, he would undercut them all and come out ahead of the lot, and there's no way Vettel would have gone from 12th to 5th in the last 20 laps like Dan did. He couldn't even get close to Magnussen. 7 laps difference isn't that much. And Vettel on the new rubber wasn't that fast I think his first lap was 33.0, which was no quicker than anyone else. He then did a slightly faster lap and only JUST beat Kmag out.

The sad truth for Vettel is he just can't use the tyres like Dan can. He only needs 1 lap in qualifying so is able to put it all on the line and qualify ahead sometimes, but in race trim there's just no way, even with the superior strategy, he can stay ahead of Dan.

The worst thing is he was closer at the start of the season. Now Dan's just leaving him behind and getting quicker and quicker.

I'll keep saying this, but if Vettel doesn't improve next year I don't see how RB can keep him on. It's up to Vettel to adapt his driving to suit the car, and he's doing a bad job of it. Maybe he just can't be bothered?

[Razzzor]

Check this out http://macofan.com/en/index.php?page...&gp=928&graf=3

Seb did his fastest lap 16 laps in on his second set, a 29.1. All other laps around that stage were mid 29's.

Dan was in traffic passing after 16 laps on his tyres, but it was consistently about low 29's, high 28's. On his 16th lap in he did a 28.8s. In fact his 16th lap in was a 28.8.

His fastest lap came 10 laps later on lap 53 (the final lap), a 28.5. That was 27 laps in. It suggested he still had plenty to come as well.

What was Seb doing 27 laps into his hard set? High 29's, by 30 laps in he was doing 1m 30s. I know there would have been a fuel difference of several laps, but damn that's 2 secs faster equivalent to one another, despite Dan having to pass a whole herd of other cars!

When you look at the pitstops, after Seb pitted he came out and was still only doing low 30's, high 29's. He should have been charging and built up a massive gap over guys that pitted later. Instead he only gained about 2 secs in those several laps.

[davyboy]

You can't really do accurate lap comparisons because Seb's car was loaded up with fuel when his tyres were at their best. RBR adopted the right strategy with Dan and the wrong one with Seb. Sometimes it just works out like that. Had they been on similar strategies, Dan may still have usurped him... we just don't know... but at least it would have been a fairer fight then.

[FAS33]

the only way Vettel will beat his team mate is if Daniel starts at the back of the grid.

[Born Racer]

This is becoming the surprise of the season. Did anyone expect Daniel to beat Seb so consistently? I thought he might be quick and show him up from time to time, but it's really beginning to look now like more than mere opportunism and more like genuine better regular race performance.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by davyboy

You can't really do accurate lap comparisons because Seb's car was loaded up with fuel when his tyres were at their best. RBR adopted the right strategy with Dan and the wrong one with Seb. Sometimes it just works out like that. Had they been on similar strategies, Dan may still have usurped him... we just don't know... but at least it would have been a fairer fight then.

A little of that time is fuel, yes, but there was only 7 laps difference, it wasn't that much of a difference.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

A little of that time is fuel, yes, but there was only 7 laps difference, it wasn't that much of a difference.

7 laps of extra fuel would equate to about half a second in lap time.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by davyboy

7 laps of extra fuel would equate to about half a second in lap time.

I suspect that the impact of extra weight (fuel load in this case) is track dependent and while weight can never be ignored, I also assume it is less impactful on the fast tracks (fewer low speed corners, long straights and fast sweepers) where lap time is likely more influenced by power and drag. I think Monza is the fastest (?) on the calendar. A very quick visual examination of the RBR lap times from the link above shows a roughly 2 tenths diff (+/-) over a roughly 7 lap window.

I tend to think he had the measure of Vettel on Sunday.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I tend to think he has the measure of Vettel every Sunday.

Richard

Just thought I'd amend this one for you......

[Born Racer]

More interesting than Vettel VS Webber, if only because Vettel's now won 4 championships and yet is now being consistently beaten. Yet the Vettel VS Webber threads went on longer, perhaps due to the championship battle.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Well, lets look at this objectively.

Do we think that Dan, in all honestly, is gonna get much more out of the Red Bull than Mark currently is? Not likely in my view.

So i'll go with, Dan's gonna get his arse whipped.

Originally Posted by Bononi

Yes, that's my POV also... actually I don't even understand why people keep thinking about this.

Originally Posted by davyboy

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Dan, or anyone else for that matter, would get the better of Vettel in that second Red Bull seat. As has been said, if he does, it will probably be the biggest upset of the modern era and cast a shadow over the careers of all the current F1 stars.

Some of the early posts are pretty good though.......

[Knowlesy]

For ages I argued Vettel was great with the blown diffuser cars but not quite so great without them, as evidenced by his performances relative to Webber.

However, around this time last year when he was rattling off nine wins on the bounce I was starting to wonder if I was being silly and just not accepting Vettel as a great out of pettiness. I accepted I was wrong and promptly predicted Ricciardo's annihilation at the hands of this mop haired, single fingered God amongst drivers.

Cue one of the most embarrassing seasons in living history from a reigning champion.

Ricciardo is getting the results the RB10 is capable of pretty much every week. I accept he is probably more motivated and possibly has less pressure, but good grief... it has been a massacre. No wonder Seb has cried off to Ferrari.

[david5]

This has gone quiet. What will happen next year. More wins for DR than SV at Circus Maximus ?

[Greem]

I've just gone back to the first page of this thread. It's going to keep me chuckling for *ages*

Edit: I've just seen my post, too, and I'm ruefully chuckling at that one!

[Knowlesy]

This...

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

This will be the dullest teammate battle for many years. Worse than Schumacher/Irvine.

Ricciardo will never out-qualify Vettel, not once. He might beat him in a race occasionally, if Vettel has trouble.

He won't win a single race IMO.

I mean honestly. I know that was somewhat tongue in cheek and exaggerated for effect, as is my style, but the overall sentiment was true to my feelings.

Vettel has let us all down and I will be haunted to my grave over this. I feel pretty bad about it, but Mr V and JohnSSC must be thoroughly ashamed of him.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Vettel has let us all down and I will be haunted to my grave over this. I feel pretty bad about it, but Mr V and JohnSSC must be thoroughly ashamed of him.

You don't think he was honestly beaten by DR in the early stages and then backed off as his future became apparent.

[Knowlesy]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think we saw the real Vettel this season, not entirely at least.

But anyone with a shred of dignity would have put in a better performance than that. If he backed off, which I don't think he did, then he should probably retire.

I think it was a perfect storm of a pressure free Ricciardo, an unmotivated Vettel and a lack of blown diffusers. But time will tell. Certainly, we need more than one sample season. Just a shame we won't see this teammate battle continuing to be more sure about the merits of the two relative to each other.

[jedrinck]

It's like when several years ago the regulations as to size and geometry of the skis used in world cup ski racing were changed. From one year to another former serial winners struggled and new guys rose to the top, most remarkably Ted Ligety in giant slalom. But yes, it is disappointing that Vettel didn't seem to be able to adjust to the new car enough as to overcome the gap between himself and Ricciardo. Shouldn't be very different next year either I guess.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Vettel has let us all down and I will be haunted to my grave over this.

Steady, it's only motor racing; not some earth shattering event!

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

But anyone with a shred of dignity would have put in a better performance than that. If he backed off, which I don't think he did, then he should probably retire.

Totally agree. Like you, last season, I reluctantly accepted that this was a great driver but after this one, I'm stepping back into the 'not so sure' category and I do think his demeanor has been found a little wanting, too.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Steady, it's only motor racing; not some earth shattering event!


Totally agree. Like you, last season, I reluctantly accepted that this was a great driver but after this one, I'm stepping back into the 'not so sure' category and I do think his demeanor has been found a little wanting, too.

which makes you wonder how many of the reputations built on the ever increasing amounts of aerodynamic downforce available to drivers over the last few decades may have been profoundly altered had not the FIA decided to continue to leave the aero door open.

Closing the door down markedly this season has certainly altered the landscape and the racing this year, leaving one wondering just how much things may be altered if we had still further reductions in the future., not just for F1 but across all categories.

[david5]

SV got spanked. To try and move forward he has gone to a politcally stable team with a recent history of reliability and pace to revive his championship chances..........

[Paradise City]

Vettel obviously wants another haul of treasure unless there's a clever plan over the long run to eventually wind up at Merc.

If it's a challenge that motivated him and if really felt he had to decamp from RBR, then spearheading the new Honda effort would be the way to go. Arriving at a chaotic Ferrari is not the way to go save if you want to bag another warehouse worth of easy money.