Stoner, Rossi and the "Crap" Ducati

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I don't disagree that Stoner is a special talent, but Vettel has proved a better over-taker than Casey. He really only wins from the front, and if he feels threatened he either crashes out, or feels "tired"...
What happened he drink some milk again??

After 31 GP victories, being 5th on the overall wins count with only Hailwood, Doohan, Agostini and Rossi ahead of him and getting the majority of wins on a bike that no-one else can ride, it simply amazes me that these sort of comments still bubble their way to the surface.

[herowassenna]

I suppose we all have valid opinions. Doesn't make anyone wrong, just different. Be boring otherwise.
All I want is Ducati to present a bike that is the equal of the Honda next year.

[jhansen]

Well Rossi tested a twin-spar aluminum frame at Jerez this week. So we shall see how that goes. Early reports show it was as fast as the 800's, but not at the pace of Stoner's test on the 1000 Honda. Early days though for an entirely new concept for Ducati. The only crucial point will be, could Rossi feel the front?

[herowassenna]

Can someone tell me, was the original carbon-fibre stressed engine design, something done by Alan Jenkins?
If so, it proves that F1 technology isn't always transferrable, after all the engine being part of the stressed chassis goes back to 1967 with the Lotus 49, you'd think maybe bike designers have already tested this out.
I remember thinking when it was announced, if Ducati really had discovered a new way, then no-one was going to be catching up for some seasons.
It seems their arrogance rivals Bimota and their hub centre design. Looks good on paper but...
I understand Casey wasn't listened to by the team, he seems to have the ability to do a "Ronnie Peterson" and ride through the problems. Almost like Damon Hill at Williams after Senna's death, the team didn't trust his input till Mansell came back.
Maybe Rossi and Burgess are proving that the bike needs substantial changes before its race worthy

[chunder]

Carbon chassis have never worked in bike racing. Plenty of people have tried them, but the most famous was Cagiva in the early 90's, they had a go, but it was too stiff, they had some success later on with a frame remarkably similar to the new Ducati one, it has a steel headstock and half rails, then glued to a carbon rest of frame, pivot area and swingarm.

PLenty of people have used them, Fulgur, Hejira and others and had success, but at the very top level the jury is out on carbon, you cant adjust it, cut it or weld to it and that makes it obselete as soon as you fit it.

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

2007, Ducati runs on Bridgestones.
2008, Rossi demands Bridgestones for Yamaha. Pedrosa midway through the season had Bridgestone supply his Honda with tyres. Nicky Hayden was still left on Michelins
2009, Bridgestone became sole provider to the grid.

I don't disagree that Stoner is a special talent, but Vettel has proved a better over-taker than Casey. He really only wins from the front, and if he feels threatened he either crashes out, or feels "tired"...
What happened he drink some milk again??

Catalunya 2007 Anyone ??? passed, was passed by and re-passed Rossi multiple times. Only to pull a gutsy move on the last corner to win on the run to the line. That move was then copied by Rossi on Lorenzo a few years later. Everyone then wobbled on about what a fantastic move Rossi had made to win the GP and that 'only Rossi' could do that !?!??! Once again the Rossi legend overtook reality.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

Catalunya 2007 Anyone ??? passed, was passed by and re-passed Rossi multiple times. Only to pull a gutsy move on the last corner to win on the run to the line. That move was then copied by Rossi on Lorenzo a few years later. Everyone then wobbled on about what a fantastic move Rossi had made to win the GP and that 'only Rossi' could do that !?!??! Once again the Rossi legend overtook reality.

You might want to go and re-watch that race. Stoner did not overtake Rossi in the final corners to win that one. It doesn't take away the validity of your argument, but that race didn't finish like that.

Edit: Re-watched the end just now just to be sure. Stoner led at the white flag and held that position for the entire last lap.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Well Rossi tested a twin-spar aluminum frame at Jerez this week. So we shall see how that goes. Early reports show it was as fast as the 800's, but not at the pace of Stoner's test on the 1000 Honda. Early days though for an entirely new concept for Ducati. The only crucial point will be, could Rossi feel the front?

Clearly they would have to substitute Rossi for Stoner to get a direct comparison. Now they are going to have to build a bike that is about 20% better than the Honda!

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by wnut

Clearly they would have to substitute Rossi for Stoner to get a direct comparison. Now they are going to have to build a bike that is about 20% better than the Honda!

It's splitting hairs really. In re-watching that Catalunya race referenced above, I saw a few laps. One move I noticed was Stoner passing Rossi on the straight and pulling maybe 6 or 7 bike lengths, and then Rossi taking all of that back on the brakes and then re-passing Stoner. Come on, you may not like Rossi, but the guy can ride a motorbike. Just not this particular one.

He's only got a few years left in the sport, and while I have little desire for seeing another Rossi world title, I do want to see more Stoner-Rossi battles before he calls time on his career.

If people don't appreciate that spectacle, then I guess I'm missing something.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by jhansen

It's splitting hairs really. In re-watching that Catalunya race referenced above, I saw a few laps. One move I noticed was Stoner passing Rossi on the straight and pulling maybe 6 or 7 bike lengths, and then Rossi taking all of that back on the brakes and then re-passing Stoner. Come on, you may not like Rossi, but the guy can ride a motorbike. Just not this particular one.

He's only got a few years left in the sport, and while I have little desire for seeing another Rossi world title, I do want to see more Stoner-Rossi battles before he calls time on his career.

If people don't appreciate that spectacle, then I guess I'm missing something.

He was so smug and self satisfied about how Stoner wasn't riding the Ducati to its full potential last year.
Stoner's retort: "We'll speak after he's ridden the Ducati!" Was just perfect!
I hate how Rossi always plays mind games, and I love how spectacularly short he has come measured against Stoner!

He is good, but a lot of his success was based on the best equipment and not his skills.

But good racing as always .

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by wnut

He is good, but a lot of his success was based on the best equipment and not his skills.

So you're writing off the majority of world champions in motorsport because they had good equipment? Might as well say the only reason Stoner is dominating this year is because of the Honda. Everyone else was closer when he was on the Duc, so he can only truly shine when he's on the best bike. Tongue in cheek of course, but hopefully you see my point.

[jhansen]

Some discussion on 1000 testing times from Jerez, Honda vs. Ducati.

http://motomatters.com/opinion/2011/...i_s_and_s.html

So, the water is pretty muddy still, but the Valencia test is getting interesting.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by jhansen

So you're writing off the majority of world champions in motorsport because they had good equipment? Might as well say the only reason Stoner is dominating this year is because of the Honda. Everyone else was closer when he was on the Duc, so he can only truly shine when he's on the best bike. Tongue in cheek of course, but hopefully you see my point.

The Honda is undoubtedly a big help to Stoner. He no longer has to carry the Ducati, and just how much carrying he was doing is now obvious with Rossi unable to lift the load. Stoner was winning on the Ducati, and usually on pole, Rossi is eighth, and they are spending money hand over fist on his "problems", should have appreciated what they had!
Stoner and Honda are a mighty combination, and he has two very good team mates in Pedroso and Dovi, something Rossi plain never had!
As soon as Lorenzo learned his craft at Yamaha, which Rossi consistently conspired against, Rossi was out of there like a shot.
Stoner in contrast was providing all the Duke guys with everything he did.

Graham Hill: "The good Lord himself in a Mini is not going to beat the bird in the Etype away from the lights!"

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by jhansen

You might want to go and re-watch that race. Stoner did not overtake Rossi in the final corners to win that one. It doesn't take away the validity of your argument, but that race didn't finish like that.

Edit: Re-watched the end just now just to be sure. Stoner led at the white flag and held that position for the entire last lap.

Fair enough, I haven't had the opportunity to actually re-watch the race, I was typing what I remembered !?!?!? It was 5 years ago. Did he pull the move (The last corner one I'm talking about) to take the lead toward the end of the race ???? If not my memory is totally shot ......

[chunder]

I'll tell you what I do know.

And that is that this is possibly one of the dulest, most uninspiring race series I have had the displeasure to watch.

The simple fact here is that on this forum you now have the most popular thread being one that Stoner and Rossi fans are arguing over who is the best rather than talking about the races or anything that happened in any of them.

You have a dullard, utterly dominant rider in every class, all backed by Spain, run by Spain, for Spain. It's exactly whatr Dorna want, but for me makes the series a total mocklery.

BSB is the only series this year offering up different winners and naybe the dark horse of all series WSS. SBK is appalling, half the teams dont want to even be there let alone try and win.

Let's forget the fact that Stoner could ride the damn thing quicker, we all know that now. If Rossi cant ride it that makes him less of a God, simple. But Rossi was able to win consistently on a 125 and 250 every year he was in them which Stoner was unable t do and Rlossi has won won a considerable amount more races and championships.

ANd he would be winning on that damn Honda. I agree Lorenzo and Stoner have made him look a bot of a chump, but in my eyes Rossi is a proper racer, he proably hates these Scalextric bikes and I dont blame him, they have amde the worlds best race series look duller than F1 Schuey era used to be and I for one have little iterest in watching it anymore.

Thanks Honda, thanks Dorna, thanks Ezpeleta, you cretin!!

[EGG]

Actually, at the beginning of this year I was thoroughly over it. I contemplated making a "why I'm over motogp" thread, but never got around to it. At any rate might as well pull some of it up from the memory now:

- 4.5 spanish races, 500 spanish riders, spanish teams, spanish sponsorship money etc
- Mamola's 2-seater desmosedici at the races. After 4 days camping in the cold/mud of PI, I don't want to sit at the fence in antartic winds watching two guys do "everyone gets a cookie" laps
- 1 hour break between moto2 and motogp at the circuit during which time nothing happens
- Coverage and commentary pales compared to F1

Other gripes were more minor; lack of interesting circuits, etc. To be honest I can't really remember them, started off as a list of 8ish.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by chunder

The simple fact here is that on this forum you now have the most popular thread being one that Stoner and Rossi fans are arguing over who is the best rather than talking about the races or anything that happened in any of them.

I'm a Stoner fan, but even I can be realistic about this discussion.

Maybe the thread has run it's course, since there really isn't much left to be said about Rossi and Stoner. The only interesting thing left is the bike, but it seems nobody cares about that...

As for this forum, like it was in 2007, lots of interest in Stoner, but it doesn't really transfer over to any interest in bike racing. Sad.

[Trev Campbell]

True, The racing is pretty dull. Everyone says it's the fault of the 800 and how it has to be ridden, and all the electronics that are now on the bikes. This may be the case but does anyone really think that the 1000's will be any different ??? I have severe doubts. I feel that the electronics will just make the bikes like the 800's with a bit extra capacity

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

True, The racing is pretty dull. Everyone says it's the fault of the 800 and how it has to be ridden, and all the electronics that are now on the bikes. This may be the case but does anyone really think that the 1000's will be any different ??? I have severe doubts. I feel that the electronics will just make the bikes like the 800's with a bit extra capacity

The bikes are significantly faster in testing, both in acceleration and top end. They should be more challenging to ride than the 800s.
Honda now have 3 of the best 4 riders in the field, the fourth being Lorenzo at Yamaha, that is the problem, not the electronics.

[chunder]

The electronics is definately the issue here, not the fact that the best riders are on good bikes.

In the era when tyre management was down to a riders ability to push the front then spin the rear when the tyre went off, someone like Rossi,Doohan or Rainey could manage their race with more ease, knowing that their rival be they Cadalora, Biaggi, Barros or whoever couldnt do the same.

Now, it's all about edge grip. You can't do anything when the edge grip has gone because electronics have now enabled riders to not only have to not worry about rear tyre life as much, they can also just go as fast as they can in the bends until the edge grip runs out. This is a result of the 800 style putting all the emphasis on turn speed and very little on rear tyre management as the aids can now just let that happen gradually.

The skill in this now is down to engineers setting the aids so that rider can adjust them as he goes, riding with those aids. This is also a skill obviously, but not the same.

1000cc engines will have more torque in time, meaning TC will be ever more vital. They have more engine braking and I am hoping in time for a ban in electronics, allowing riders to be able to show their true skills. Being able to ride a powerful bike with no help from the man most import now in any team, the data engineer!

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by wnut

Honda now have 3 of the best 4 riders in the field, the fourth being Lorenzo at Yamaha, that is the problem, not the electronics.

I really need some of what you're on....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I really need some of what you're on....

A good dose of reality ...

Show boat is a hasbeen!

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by wnut

Show boat is a hasbeen!

I suppose next year if he wins races it will be the bike, not him.

[EGG]

I don't know that altering traction control on the bike can produce a large enough effect on the racing. It will change how the bikes are ridden, but may not bring them closer on-circuit for the full 45 minutes. There will still only be 2-3 teams capable of winning, and that will remain dependent on cash flow and the level of commitment of the manufacturers. There was no TC in the Doohan era and I still feel somewhat sorry for anyone who wasn't an aussie during that period. The ability of a single team to throw cash, Doohan, development and Burgess at the bike over-ruled Team Rainey's efforts.

Just an idle thought, but does anyone think the move to Moto2 with it's spec engine and claiming rules (effectively ruling out manufacturer presence and providing a support base to Suter/FTR/Tech3/Moriwaki), and also the CRT teams next year are part of a longer term effort by Dorna to build up a significant non-manufacturer presence in MotoGP? And by significant, I'm thinking they could eventually manipulate a multi-decade switch over to prototypes built by garagista teams with engines supplied by manufacturers, essentially removing factory bikes from the picture.

Hopefully I've enunciated this concept well enough, as being less of an increased presence of also-rans, and more of a long-term restructuring of the actual players involved and decreased reliance on manufacturers.

Part of the problem with the premier class is there's rarely more than two major parties at any one time, with one slightly outspending the other. It's then mostly in their interest to maintain a degree of status quo. For this reason we see lower-speed expensive satellite bikes being the only option made to privateers. They're not fast enough to catch the factory bikes, and they're too expensive to result in large grids.

[chunder]

The problem in the Doohan era was that Yamaha dodnt have a good enough rider to beat him, the guy that got closest in fatc was his best mate, Daryl Beattie on the Suzuki in 95, he ran him pretty close and rattled Mick into mistakes, it was only when Daryl got hurt he lost the impetus, but he was on fire that year.

Yamaha never had anyone good enough. CAdalora was like Biaggi, good one week, poor the next and that's coz he couldnt proficiently spin the rear.

I dont think banning TC will make the racing closer much, that wasnt my point. But It could perhaps allow a rider who is able to ride the back end more get better results if they can set hte bike up well, like Crafar did in 98, or Laconi at times. Keny Ronerts would have a lod more races if he was on a bike that allowed him to spin the rear, the RGV was never able to do that on the tyres he was on, unlike Schwantz who could spin it up on the poorer tyres of the early 90's.