Audi LMP1 Discussion

[MyNameIsNigel]

Audi are due to hold their usual press conference at the upcoming Geneva Motorshow on March 3rd, 2015. We may get some information at this occasion considering that they are also expected to test at Sebring at the same time. I am not expecting a 2015-spec R18 to be on display in Geneva (like last year with the 2014-spec car) as Audi would rather have this car run in Florida, but who knows ?

I will have a chance to be on site and hope to be able to chat with a few people.

[chernaudi]

Audi are supposed to be at Sebring starting the last weekend of this month to get ready for the test, and that's when Autosport suggested that Audi would reveal specs and info on the car.

I'd bet that even if a show car isn't at Geneva, I'll bet that photos and video will be out by then from Sebring, Audi authored or not, or both.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'd bet that even if a show car isn't at Geneva, I'll bet that photos and video will be out by then from Sebring, Audi authored or not, or both.

attention Lanky Turtle...

[chernaudi]

Some magazine test videos of the 2014 R18, with some R8 LMS thrown in as a bonus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24cySS8UoeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7oasJWxTYI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUW9os-Ybh0

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi did design the original R15 with a bias towards the ALMS, but when it ran at LM it was hopeless because of aero drag and it wasn't really any faster than the R10 was. It won Sebring and nearly won PLM in '09, but those were at the shorter tracks that the package was designed for.

And the car from '09 of which you speak...

http://www.lasersol.com/CyberMotor/p..._2009_wed.html

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by cokata

x2. In a perfect world that should happen. No MJ class, you use all the energy you can recover (it's free energy anyway, why should you cap it). No hybrid system should be an option for works teams as well. Diesel and petrol get the same amount of energy .Reduce the minimum weight 850kg or less. We could see an ICE only car with 8L diesel engine running to only ~3500 redline, and it will have 50+hp advantage over the hybrid P1s.

Second that lol. "HYBRID SHOULD BE FREE"... not trying to be the same for everybody, but perhaps only a "maximum" number allowed like 16MJ... the better you are at it, more close to the max you are (don't complain after).

Nevertheless that wont mean we will see 8L diesel engines, that would a gross duplication of "torque" potential, and i don't see the point of having "drivetrains" with well over 2000Nm(except for burning tires very fast). Nothing can surpass electric motors at torque, and with 16MJ perhaps close to that number is already possible for a few seconds on electric power alone...

HYBRID FREE will have exactly the effect that FIA/ACO pretends, the engines will be slightly smaller and less powerful, launch power/acceleration will be based on electric means(torque monsters)... and most teams will try to balance the setup for close to 20 laps stints at LM... PERHAPS THEN WHAT SHOULD BE MADE EQUAL TO EVERYBODY IS THE SAME STINT LENGHT ( everybody stops at the same number of laps, which reflects the open road environment of this races, because on 'open road' you have gas stations exactly at the same distance to everybody... only it seams FIA/ACO forgot about the 'open road' heritage, they are on a different agenda for different clients ... not the race teams... )

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Not logical in any way I am afraid. There is an incentive to run in higher ERS classes and this ERS incentive is the same for all ERS classes, except for the 8MJ petrol. As you should recall, the current EoT assumes a uniform theoretical performance gain of 0.5 sec/lap @LM for each MJ of hybrid energy. Based on the aforementioned hypotheses, this equates to approximately 0.15 MJ/lap for each MJ of hybrid energy.

Irrespective of the actual hypotheses, if you plot the relevant figures in a chart, the ERS incentive should be reflected as a substantially linear curve of a given slope. This is true, except for the 8MJ ERS petrol option. That clearly illustrates that the ERS incentive is not applied uniformly and consistently, which is at odds with what the ERS incentive is supposed to be.

If this difference is supposed to find an explanation in the increased weight that would come with the 8MJ hybrid, then why isn't this also reflected in the case of diesel ?

This is not logical, but weird.

0.15MJ/lap ? ... a famous quote from a movie :" assumptions is the mother of all fu.. ups" lol

The problem is that there are very different engine performances with the same basic engine, as well there are very different performances with the same basic "electric" setups... every system has its efficiency and its loses and its balances... and we are talking about systems that are already very complex... and on top of it you add the driver ( perhaps the most important factor of all). Hardly can you expect having similar performances... its a lost battle, a rule making utopia...

Point is FIA/ACO doesn't know precise numbers of everything, they can have an approach on *top* numbers measured by their instrumentation... but *top* numbers hardly reflect the overall package performance and efficiency, there are too much factors... and soon we will have corrective factor K , factor M factor Y etc... a factor nightmare, that as soon one is introduced, the more distorted the things will be.

[gustavobamba]

We should see in the next 10 years a massive evolution in hybrid tech.

I don´t think we are going to see "FREE" hybrid because ACO will want to have things under control... :-)

My vision of the future is a "massive" weight drop from the hybrid solution´s but the power levels should increase ( but not allot more). There are allot of energy wasted that can be recovered and is possible that new systems could show new way´s...

Audi have a "massive experience" in preparing cars to "WIN" Le Mans... in 2015 they will have a car to Win but Porsche looks very strong and this could be Toyota´s year... but in a 24h race everything could happen :-)

By the way, if P1 uses hybrid tech for the future road cars , why not use the GTE cars to develop this system´s???? I still don´t get it!!!! They are road car´s but with racing pedigree :-)

[TF110]

I dont like the look of the current cars. The roof is too high, cars and tires are too skinny, not enough technical freedom, banning of fuel efficient engine tech like vvt etc. Hybrid power is just one area where things can be opened up.

As for Audi, I dont think the car will be much different. Maybe less open bodywork this year though.

[knighty]

While talking about new hybrid tech on the Audi thread, I just stumbled across this link below, Ricardo launched it about 4 years ago as a concept called KinerStor, basically another Flywheel energy storage system.......now, as of December 2014, it seems to have been developed into a credible working demonstrator and re-named TorqStor.

If I was a betting man I can imagine Ricardo are pushing this TorqStor to their chums in the Audi LMP1 team, as the GKN-WHP flywheel system seems to have been nothing but trouble, from what I hear its due to the complex sealing systems and vacuum pump failures, plus Baretzky does seem highly reluctant to entertain anything with batteries.

My understanding is the Ricardo TorqStor solution uses a magnetic coupling to transfer energy from inside the vacuum chamber to the outside world, therefore does not require a complex sealing system, so doesn't need a vacuum pump system, like Flybrid or GKN-WHP use, hence saving a lot of weight and complexity, so dare I say potentially more reliable......0.25 to 4MJ would easily cover and LMP1 installation up to 8MJ, but it would be interesting to know the energy to system weight ratio.

Ricardo are a highly credible powertrain technology company, I know for a fact they do a lot of consulting work for Audi both on racing and road projects.

http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/News--M...-to-the-rails/

.

[CTD]

Very interesting!
I do however also remember that my sister, while visiting Red Bull in Austria was told that they worked together with Audi on Audi's hybrid system for Le Mans.
I haven't heard anything about this since?

[J Jay]

Well all that leaves me wondering about why Audi didn't plump for Ricardo's system in the first place - was it too late to be put onto the R18 e-tron, or were there still concerns about it at the time? It sounds like a good idea to make the switch, even with the repackaging/designing that would have to take place.

[chernaudi]

If the TorqStor system is as light as the WHP/GKN flywheel, and they can package it to fit in the same place on the car without the need for any extensive modification to either the car or hybrid system (aside from being new builds, it's already been reported that Audi will be using a tub identical in design to the 2014 car), I wouldn't put it past Audi to make the change if need be, or at least get GKN and Ricardo to consult with each other to combine the best of both systems into one really good system. Also interesting to hear that Audi got some info from RBR on their KERS system for their F1 car. Could be where they got their own version of Toyota's braking modulator system after Audi and Porsche asked for a rules clarification on the Toyota system, and Audi did run their own version of that at Sao Paulo for sure.

Could this, as well as changes to the car's aero package, be the reason for the secrecy? Hopefully we'll find out in the coming week or so; Audi themselves have dropped hints at running an "enhanced" flywheel storage system without giving any further details, and Autosport (who I'm questioning considering that they've shown indifference to sportscar racing and anything outside of F1 or NASCAR before) have reported that Audi would reveal photos and specs of the 2015 R18 by the end of the month, and that's coming rapidly, as in this Saturday, by which time Audi will probably be in Sebring setting up for their week long test.

[cokata]

A permanent vacuum seal, and a magnetic bearing are the holy grail of flywheel storage. Once you reach that there won't be much scope for improvement. And still for quite a while a system like that will have a huge advantage over batteries and supercaps for KERS (not hybrid) applications.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by cokata

A permanent vacuum seal, and a magnetic bearing are the holy grail of flywheel storage.

With an electronic connection to the flywheel, it seems that you are more likely to get a good seal for the vacuum seal over the mechanical connection. Of course, if you have a flywheel spinning off the end of your tightly sealed shaft using magnetic bearings then who knows what is possible?

Very interesting times we are living in. Seeing all these different ideas and approaches being played out on such a huge stage is fantastic.

[knighty]

If your that interested in the Ricardo trick magnetic-coupling that does not require fancy seals or vacuum pump, heres the patent application filed in 2013

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-ipsum/Case/...er/GB1310875.8

Specifically the drawings are here, quite interesting

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-ipsum/Docum...9-Drawings.pdf


enjoy!

[CTD]

Just heard today that we will see the new Audi R18 at Geneva.
I might get some numbers on it before, but not sure about that though.

And, there is internal pictures of the R18 in Audi, shown to the top guys in countries. (I haven't seen those though)

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by CTD

Just heard today that we will see the new Audi R18 at Geneva.
I might get some numbers on it before, but not sure about that though.

And, there is internal pictures of the R18 in Audi, shown to the top guys in countries. (I haven't seen those though)

Perfect. I am warming up to take a few pics during the press conference on March 3rd.

[chernaudi]

I bet that we'll probably get glimpses of it before: Audi are due to arrive in Sebring by Saturday to set up and their test begins either Monday or Tuesday I believe. Geneva will be the official press launch, and though I think that if Audi start testing on Monday, we'll probably get photos and videos from people hanging out at Sebring, but at least at Geneva it'll be easier to study the car in the flesh and we'll probably get press photos and info by then, too.

[j_hampton2000]

>Audi are due to arrive in Sebring by Saturday
I have information that says they will be testing at Sebring 1-3 March (Sun-Tues)

[MyNameIsNigel]

According to motorsport-total.com, Audi are expected to test at Sebring from March 2nd to March 6th.

[TF110]

This should be pretty big, the Sebring test that is. Not because of just Audi, but Nissan being there at the same time. Comparisons will definitely be made.

[MyNameIsNigel]

This motorsport.com article would seem to suggest that Justin Taylor is now formally part of the Audi Sport family, which would imply that he left Progressive Motorsport.

Jörg Zander appears to take over the position left by "H".

The article also suggests that Matthias Huber already worked as race engineer on the 3rd car at LM last year. This is news to me.

[chernaudi]

I'm surprised that Nigel hasn't yet commented on the rumor that Knighty posed about Audi maybe switching flywheel supplier or at least looking at the Ricardo flywheel, which is similar to the Williams/GKN system but instead of using a vacuum pump to maintain a high pressure vacuum (important to the flywheel system's efficiency), they use either a magnetic or electro-magnetic coupling that doesn't need a high pressure vacuum.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the changes that Audi has made, and why they've been pretty secret about the 2015 car up to this point, aside from the bodywork/aero changes.

IMO, it's also odd how Toyota got papped at Algarve and for all their secrecy not only have a car that doesn't seem to have changes significantly compared to last year externally at least, but Audi have been working on this stuff since last spring, and have tested at least parts and bits since last fall, but not one photo or video has leaked out, and won't until probably at least this weekend, or this coming Monday; CTD even had admitted that within the past couple of days that Audi Sport has given press photos to the regional/national Audi distribution agents for release to the public on Tuesday.

Either Audi have done a good job of "hiding all the bodies" of would-be paparazzos, or security at their tests has been insanely tight, even tighter than at armed forces/military special forces bases or something like the Pentagon. Just really strange that Audi have been testing all this time, or transporting stuff to wind tunnels (like WindShear in North Carolina in the heart of NASCAR country) and other R&D facilities, and not one detail has thus far leaked aside from those that Audi have intentionally leaked, which has been basically nothing of serious note.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm surprised that Nigel hasn't yet commented on the rumor that Knighty posed about Audi maybe switching flywheel supplier or at least looking at the Ricardo flywheel, which is similar to the Williams/GKN system but instead of using a vacuum pump to maintain a high pressure vacuum (important to the flywheel system's efficiency), they use either a magnetic or electro-magnetic coupling that doesn't need a high pressure vacuum.

I haven't had a chance to really look into the Ricardo flywheel technology yet

While the electromagnetic coupling would appear to be an attractive feature, there are still some questions:
- How efficient is this system ?
- What about magnetic coupling losses ?
- How heavy is this technology compared to the WHP/GKN technology ? What is the energy storage capacity to weight ratio ?
- How reliable is this technology in terms of maintaining the required vacuum inside the flywheel chamber ?

As far as the WHP/GKN technology is concerned, is the vacuum seal the issue or rather the inability to prevent the occurrence of microscopic cracks in the flywheel chamber as a result of shocks (which would also be a potential issue for the Ricardo system) ?

Unless the Ricardo system provides a clear benefit in terms of energy storage density, and is as reliable as or more reliable than the WHP/GKN solution, I don't see Audi making that switch.