Audi LMP1 Discussion

[MyNameIsNigel]

Another informative update from Fourtitude on the DieselGate, including the following interesting extract from a Bosch press release:

For the (Volkswagen Group) models named in the reports, Bosch supplied the common-rail injection system as well as the supply and dosing module for exhaust-gas treatment.

As is usual in the automotive supply industry, Bosch supplies these components to the automaker’s specifications. How these components are calibrated and integrated into complete vehicle systems is the responsibility of each automaker.

The current issue is not fundamentally about diesel. On the contrary, in combustion-engine engineering, modern diesel technology is the best principle, resulting in the lowest pollutant emissions. Modern diesel powertrains are indispensable for achieving European greenhouse-gas emissions targets. The diesel means protection for both the environment and the consumer.

Bosch develops injection and exhaust-gas treatment systems that can reduce emissions in every driving situation and operating mode – also at high speeds and when accelerating hard. Diesel remains a key technology for achieving global CO2 targets. Most importantly, Bosch believes that there is potential to further reduce the CO2 emissions from diesel engines by as much as 15 percent.

There is also significant potential for further reducing nitrogen-oxide emissions from diesel vehicles. For example, Bosch’s Denoxtronic allows a reduction of up to 95 percent, also in conditions not covered by the official driving cycle tests. Bosch remains committed to the diesel.

Bosch are at least still willing to advocate in favour of diesel technology

[chernaudi]

The biggest thing that will hurt Volkswagen Group, especially in the US, won't be fines or lawsuits, which will be probably settled for relative pennies on the dollar. It's going to be the cost to cover repairs/updates to the cars under recalls and warranty claims.

If a "simple" software fix is all that's needed, then the pain inflicted will be less, but I still think that VAG will still have to cover the cost under warranty.

If they have to update the 2.0 TDI engines to use AdBlue, that's gonna sting quite a bit, as that's going to be at least a cost of almost $400 USD per car just for the retrofit and parts. And I don't think that the customers who take their cars in for the fix will be wanting to pay $400 plus labor and other related costs--I think that to keep from alienating their customer base for the TDI 4 bangers, VAG will have to cover most if not all cost under warranty.

I'm thinking that between the $400 per car retrofit and other associated costs, if we round that up to $500-600 per car, that's a lot of money.

Ironically, according to that Fourtitude article that MyNameIsNigel linked, Bosch already manufactured tons of AdBlue kits for the 2.0 TDI and that they can already be bolted on to existing engines that don't have them.

Maybe VAG will have to bite the bullet and add either AdBlue or the Bosch Denoxtronic systems to be sure from now on to meet foreseeable regulations.

[chernaudi]

Same link says that for now Hackenburg and Hatz haven't yet been forced to resign, but have been temporarily suspended from command at their posts until the internal investigation ends, after which their futures with Volkswagen Group will be determined.

Several other unnamed people within VAG have also been told to take leaves of absence until the investigation is over as well.

But the end of the day fact is this--if VAG did what Bosch had suggested with the AdBlue supply and ECU management, they wouldn't be having this problem in the US or anywhere else.

If only I knew the name of the guy who decided that ditching AdBlue even with Bosch advocating it's use...

[chernaudi]

Unless VW does some major kiss and make up or at least admit fault with the AdBlue/Denoxtronic system, this might impact VAG racing programs with sponsorship possibly.

Both Audi and Porsche--especially Audi--are sponsored by Bosch as a sponsor and technical partner. Whether or not that will happen I can't say and Bosch would probably like to continue their alliance with Audi and Porsche, but that might give VW some incentive to adopt Denoxtronic in their road cars.

Ironically, the 3.0 TDI V6 and 4.2 TDI V8 have Denoxtronic or something similar supplied by Bosch as standard.

[chernaudi]

Sorry for all these posts of mine that have run together, but Volkswagen Group have announced their initial stage of plans to fix cars with the effected software/engine combinations. For the time being, new vehicles will be fitted with EU5 spec engines in the European market, and by the end of October, a plan should be in place for repairs to all cars, which I'm guessing will be a retrofit of the AdBlue/Bosch Denoxtronic treatment systems.

http://fourtitude.com/news/Industry_...9-eu5-engines/

[deggis]

Some source near VW:

In a situation like this, companies usually curtail non-essential marketing expenses, which ratchets down their profile, and saves money at the same time. Reuters reported last week that the “hundreds of millions of euros invested in German football annually” could be under serious review at VW. In motorsports, insiders fear a withdrawal of Volkswagen Group companies from the World Rally Championship WRC, and the World Endurance Championship WEC. WEC is firmly in the hands of the world’s largest automakers Volkswagen and Toyota. Porsche and Audi currently are on top of the WEC standings, with Toyota in 3rd place. If Porsche and Audi would leave WEC, Toyota would soon follow, the guessing goes. “Akio doesn’t want to race against himself” said a Toyota insider.

http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/diese...ay-radio-says/

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by deggis

Some source near VW:


http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/diese...ay-radio-says/

A very pessimistic view to say the least. Now, if Audi and Porche do have to withdraw from the WEC it will pretty much kill the LMP1 category. That's not something I am looking forward to.

[Akrapovic]

There's another argument which says that if the WEC efforts provided enough positive marketing that they pay for themselves plus more, then pulling out will only hurt them further as you'd lose that positive marketing. Another way of going about this would be to change no efforts. You've got to assume that VAG operate in a pretty efficient way anyway, and changing things would save money on the face of things, but hurt income afterwards.

Both are valid ways of looking at it.

[FxL]

Originally Posted by deggis

If Porsche and Audi would leave WEC, Toyota would soon follow, the guessing goes.

But not before winning LM without competition. And one year after that, Nissan will get their chance

I wouldn't wonder if Audi will leave (should be hard to advertise diesel technology from now on) but I still have hope for Porsche.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by FxL

But not before winning LM without competition. And one year after that, Nissan will get their chance

I wouldn't wonder if Audi will leave (should be hard to advertise diesel technology from now on) I have still hope for Porsche.

I think you'll find Rebellion and Kolles have dibs after Toyota

[J Jay]

If VW were to pull out of their Bundesliga commitments I for one wouldn't be too displeased, especially if they did it before Wolfsburg play Man United tonight!

[DS"]

Despite being owned by VW, isn't Porsche pretty much autonomous from its mother company? They aren't involved in the diesel scandal anyway and Porsche receives positive media attention due to their successes in sportscar racing.

As far as Audi goes, I think the possibility of them leaving WEC has been raised slightly. From a marketing point of view, there's no point in running a diesel anymore, but what's the point for Audi to basically run the same package as Porsche? So I could very well see VW being opportunistic and consolidating Audi's and Porsche's LMP1 program under Porsche's banner. But then again, Le Mans is pretty the core of Audi's racing activities, so maybe Audi will come up with something else, to differenciate themselves from their competition.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by DS"

Despite being owned by VW, isn't Porsche pretty much autonomous from its mother company? They aren't involved in the diesel scandal anyway and Porsche receives positive media attention due to their successes in sportscar racing. .

VW own Porsche AG , but the largest shareholder (52%) of VW is Porsche SE (the Porsche and Piech families) with a majority of voting rights.
Yes they are pretty much autonomous and judging from the reorganization that is currently going on, so will Audi and VW itself . Mueller (the new CEO) wants to give all the brands much more autonomy.

[chernaudi]

The autonomy among Audi, Porsche and VW was in the works for a while, and though Wintercorn seemingly championed the idea (thanks for the correction on that one ), his resignation seemed to have given Volkswagen Group the "excuse" to stop holding it off.

I can see this as meaning in the longer term that Audi and Porsche won't have to be at least "seen" as being connected like they are now and they'll have more room to explore their own ideas in the future on the road and especially on the race track.

Of course, in the nearer term, Audi and Porsche will be "related" in that both cars will use hybrid systems that are battery powered and probably will power all four wheels to their cars to a certain extent. However, that's due almost entirely due to evolution and one package having an advantage and quick development potential than due to Audi and Porsche both being owned by VAG/pure copycat logic.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

A very pessimistic view to say the least. Now, if Audi and Porche do have to withdraw from the WEC it will pretty much kill the LMP1 category. That's not something I am looking forward to.

I agree that is pretty doomsday-ish, but still scary that it s being mentioned at all. In a non-racing related rumor blog.

Should be a reminder how fragile WEC is, everything is fine and dandy until a pullout or two happens which may happen later for other reasons too. Maybe ACO's masterplan behind P2 is to force the few bigger operators there to P1-L and thus have a credible fallback P1 class.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by FxL

But not before winning LM without competition. And one year after that, Nissan will get their chance

I wouldn't wonder if Audi will leave (should be hard to advertise diesel technology from now on) but I still have hope for Porsche.

So Toyota will do 'an Audi' circa 2000-2007 minus the Bentley years. Run privateers into oblivion then leave after theyve won a few? Nah. Porsche has commited to 2018. The only thing that might affect them is the diesel Macan. Audi will switch to petrol if they stay for a few years imo and at least continue for at least another year or two.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by TF110

So Toyota will do 'an Audi' circa 2000-2007 minus the Bentley years. Run privateers into oblivion then leave after theyve won a few? Nah. Porsche has commited to 2018. The only thing that might affect them is the diesel Macan. Audi will switch to petrol if they stay for a few years imo and at least continue for at least another year or two.

Yea except that knowing Toyota, the privateers will end up being faster than them. It's okay though, there are always excuses...

I love how you try to discredit the R8 for those years it competed as if Audi didn't work hard to accomplish what they did.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

Yea except that knowing Toyota, the privateers will end up being faster than them. It's okay though, there are always excuses...

I love how you try to discredit the R8 for those years it competed as if Audi didn't work hard to accomplish what they did.

Youre a good laugh. There were no serious threats to Audi (as in well funded manufacturers) until Peugeot came. They didnt compete against Bentley with a factory car. The suggestion that Toyota would stay and face private teams is close to what Audi was doing in the early 2000's.

[chernaudi]

To be fair, some of Porsche's winning years were pretty lean:

70-71 had the half-baked Ferrari efforts

76-77 had Renault who left for F1 after their '78 win

81-82 had Rondeau with his garagist built cars

83-85 had Lancia's vain efforts

So most of Porsche's wins came also from beating privateers or teams that left after they did win or did something else after a couple of years.

[TF110]

A win is a win. Thats how they score it. So even if Audi and Porsche up and leave, a Toyota win will still be a win. Plus, Nissan is still here

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by TF110

Youre a good laugh. There were no serious threats to Audi (as in well funded manufacturers) until Peugeot came. They didnt compete against Bentley with a factory car. The suggestion that Toyota would stay and face private teams is close to what Audi was doing in the early 2000's.

I'm a good laugh? That's hilarious coming for you. I guess I'd be bitter as a Toyota fan too

[Aysedasi]

OK, let's deal with subject matter, shall we....?

[chernaudi]

As far as Audi leaving diesel tech in the near future, as the only ones running a diesel engine right now, they don't have to worry about being at the top of the heap as far as fuel tech right now.

And as the Bosch press release noted, diesel tech isn't in and of itself the problem. The problem is that Volkswagen Group at the very top of the road car engine program decided not to use the Bosch Denoxtronic AdBlue system that Bosch was selling them on their 4 cylinder TDI engines. Unfortunately, Audi are a victim by proxy/guilty by association because of that decision, as well as the other non VW VAG brands.

[chernaudi]

One 2016 rule change that's been confirmed is that the ACO/FIA want to limit instant power release from engine/hybrid system combined to be around 1000bhp.

This is clearly aimed at Porsche and Toyota to keep them from using their 8MJ hybrid systems (and maybe Audi with their 6MJ system next year) as an instant full-time go faster button and gearing them to use the hybrids to boost fuel mileage.

If Audi are making 900+bhp with a 4MJ system, they should easily be pushing 1000 with a 6MJ system, if not a bit more than that.

I'd also expect that Audi will probably run "normal" rear view mirrors next year because the ACO also made a ruling on that in the 2016 technical regs.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

One 2016 rule change that's been confirmed is that the ACO/FIA want to limit instant power release from engine/hybrid system combined to be around 1000bhp.

This is clearly aimed at Porsche and Toyota to keep them from using their 8MJ hybrid systems (and maybe Audi with their 6MJ system next year) as an instant full-time go faster button and gearing them to use the hybrids to boost fuel mileage.

If Audi are making 900+bhp with a 4MJ system, they should easily be pushing 1000 with a 6MJ system, if not a bit more than that.

I'd also expect that Audi will probably run "normal" rear view mirrors next year because the ACO also made a ruling on that in the 2016 technical regs.

I am surprised by this 1000bhp-limit. What's fundamentally wrong with having a combined engine + hybrid power in excess of 1000bhp under the current fuel-flow energy-restricted formula ?