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Old 30 Nov 2013, 19:35 (Ref:3338724)   #26
davyboy
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C'mon guys....he may be bad in many peoples eyes, but I don't think he is "that" bad. There have been far worse.
He isn't that bad at all. He's an F1 race winner after all [in a Williams (!)], which is more than be said for Grosjean, Hulkenberg, di Resta, Perez, Bottas, JEV, Ricciardo etc... who are all supposedly there on merit !
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 19:38 (Ref:3338725)   #27
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I'm blasé about it. I think it's because he seems personally an unpleasant character who behaves badly that drives much of this anti-Pastor sentiment. If he was a 'nice guy' we'd still remark upon him, yeah, but the appointment wouldn't be a big deal either.
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 20:38 (Ref:3338733)   #28
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They managed to achieve that this year and it took them to the brink of bankruptcy. If the rewards of success can not overcome the basic costs of operating in F1 then the model is flawed and needs to be changed.
I believe, so just guessing, that this situation has been happening before this season, so it's more like a downhill route.
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Old 30 Nov 2013, 21:28 (Ref:3338743)   #29
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I believe, so just guessing, that this situation has been happening before this season, so it's more like a downhill route.
Yes, I believe that too. Unfortunately striving for success made things worse not better.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 05:14 (Ref:3338815)   #30
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There are too many myths being promulgated on the web forums and comments on the F1 news sites regarding Lotus signing Maldonado. Lets look into this:


Myth 1: This is disgraceful because the top teams do not hire pay drivers.

Reality: It's almost certain that McLaren was lured by Mexican sponsorship money when they signed Sergio Perez for 2013. Even though Ferrari denies it, the Santander group probably had a hand in replacing Kimi Raikkonen with Alonso in 2010.


Myth 2: Lotus is a top team.

Reality: Lotus was at best a "best of the rest" team since around 2008, when it was the Renault F1 team, until Kimi arrived. Moreover, Lotus is no longer a factory team and it doesn't have that many great sponsors. The 2012 and 2013 were surprisingly strong cars, but this was done at the expense of "borrowing" >100M from Genii Capital. Clearly, Genii Capital is sick of sinking so much money into this team, and they want now to recoup some of that investment.


Myth 3: Lotus sold out to mediocre pay drivers.

Reality: They still have Grosjean. Grosjean has matured a lot this this year and showed surprisingly strong performance, specially in the second half of this season. It is entirely sensible approach to go with one strong driver and one weaker driver. Certainly, Grosjean+Hulkenberg might have been better, but Lotus can't afford this.

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Old 1 Dec 2013, 08:21 (Ref:3338830)   #31
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Certainly, Grosjean+Hulkenberg might have been better, but Lotus can't afford this.
And why can't they afford this after finishing 4th in the constructors for the 2nd season running?

Why has talent had to suffer?

These are the big issues here...
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 08:59 (Ref:3338835)   #32
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And why can't they afford this after finishing 4th in the constructors for the 2nd season running?

Why has talent had to suffer?

These are the big issues here...
It seems to me that Lotus simply spent big those years, without having a good sponsor. As a result they owe a lot of money now. The money is provided by the owners, Genii Capital, but a lot of it was a loan, not sponsorship deal. Even though the Lotus team can collect considerable amount of prize money (someone estimated, over 100M), they also have a huge debt of over $100M to Genii Capital.

I think the issue here is that Lotus spends like a factory team, even though they're no longer a factory team, and without significant sponsors. And realistically, this is the way things were since the 80s. Except for an occasional fluke win, like Brawn in 09, the winning teams were either owned by major brands or car factories or they had some wealthy sponsors, often tobacco companies. That's the way it was for about 30 years now. That some teams are struggling is nothing new. Even the original Team Lotus went belly up in the 90s.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 09:10 (Ref:3338836)   #33
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It seems to me that Lotus simply spent big those years, without having a good sponsor. As a result they owe a lot of money now. The money is provided by the owners, Genii Capital, but a lot of it was a loan, not sponsorship deal. Even though the Lotus team can collect considerable amount of prize money (someone estimated, over 100M), they also have a huge debt of over $100M to Genii Capital.

I think the issue here is that Lotus spends like a factory team, even though they're no longer a factory team, and without significant sponsors. And realistically, this is the way things were since the 80s. Except for an occasional fluke win, like Brawn in 09, the winning teams were either owned by major brands or car factories or they had some wealthy sponsors, often tobacco companies. That's the way it was for about 30 years now. That some teams are struggling is nothing new. Even the original Team Lotus went belly up in the 90s.
I wouldn't call Brawn a fluke, more the work of a genius and 2 above average drivers.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 11:17 (Ref:3338868)   #34
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Ha, fluke win, no sir.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 15:39 (Ref:3338915)   #35
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Honda was barley a top 10 team the year before and came back to win it in 2009 and the idea of the double diffuser may not even have been theirs so while calling it a fluke may be a bit extreme it isn't really a stretch either and doesn't derail the larger point imo.

Larger point being Lotus F1 have been a team playing on borrowed time for a long while. Personally I think they are so desperate that they would have signed anyone with that kind of money (as seen by their willingness to sell to this Quantum group ) and the fact that PM does have some solid attributes is merely an after thought.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 15:43 (Ref:3338917)   #36
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I find this bloke a bit like a Diniz with a bit more talent.

But at least Pedro was able to get a point now and then, and didnt throw good places away with stupid driving.

That win was proved to be a bit of a fluke as the car was prety good last year and really should ahve been able to get bette results more often, but he did well at times,.

But as Grosjean has shown to learn, this guy really hasnt, and the way he was *****ing and moaning at year end when it was money, not talent that meant he was there was typical of the classless South American attitudes of these drivers at times.

At least guys liek Diniz were honest about why they were there! This guy actually seems to thnk he is good
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 17:22 (Ref:3338946)   #37
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Chunder speaks the truth. Maldonado could've had more than one podium with that car last season, but drove like a douche. This season he was outpaced by Bottas more often than not, and the fact that he, not Bottas, gets to go to a "top team" is a joke. If you put Bottas in the 2012 Williams he could've taken the win at Spain and probably a few more podiums.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 23:50 (Ref:3339070)   #38
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Chunder speaks the truth. Maldonado could've had more than one podium with that car last season, but drove like a douche. This season he was outpaced by Bottas more often than not, and the fact that he, not Bottas, gets to go to a "top team" is a joke. If you put Bottas in the 2012 Williams he could've taken the win at Spain and probably a few more podiums.
See, cds, misinformed garbage posts like this are why I defend Maldonado.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 08:27 (Ref:3339157)   #39
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Attempting to form an objective view of Maldonado is inevitably clouded by the fact he comes across as thoroughly unlikeable.

He look's like a thug, behave's like a thug and drives like a rock ape.

On occasion, he has shown some blistering pace but he's far too volatile to put together a consistent season. If next years Lotus is any good I can see him doing another "Spanish" GP, but that will be it.

The fact none of the really major teams have shown any interest in him speaks volumes.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 10:00 (Ref:3339177)   #40
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The fact none of the really major teams have shown any interest in him speaks volumes.
They haven't shown interest in any of his 'floating' contemporaries [Hulkenberg, di Resta, Bottas etc... ] either... which speaks volumes about them too.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 10:07 (Ref:3339180)   #41
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Drivers like PM that bring such a significant budget to a team puts them in a difficult position IMO. You end up with a customer and a driver and when the customer isn't happy, or doesn't think they are getting what they have 'paid' for it creates great problems, as Williams have found.

Is PM going to let RG by if he is faster, etc? Is he going to want first dibs on updates, etc? When the budget the driver brings is at this sort of business saving level, they can have a massive impact and not always in a positive way.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 10:19 (Ref:3339182)   #42
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They haven't shown interest in any of his 'floating' contemporaries [Hulkenberg, di Resta, Bottas etc... ] either... which speaks volumes about them too.
Yep, it says they ain't got no cash.......
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 10:34 (Ref:3339186)   #43
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The thing is and this is why I'm always surprised when anyone defends him, this incident described here is the reason why I don't think he should be sat in any racing car, period. Yes I know that it was a long time ago but to me that is unforgivable. You can see from some of his antics since then (such as the Lewis and Sergio sideswipes) he doesn't seem to have learned anything.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 10:35 (Ref:3339187)   #44
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There can be no debate that Maldonado is very quick, you don't win GP2 races in your first year and 6 features in a row a few years later, or F1 races at all if you do not have speed. I would argue that on speed alone he is potentially quicker than many of the people mentioned on this thread.

To say that the Spain win was a fluke I think is very wrong in my view, he was the quickest person in the race! How can this be classed as a fluke, there have been many times in the past where things just come together for driver and team and it all just clicks. If Hill had won the race in Hungry in 1997 would that have been a fluke or a fantastic drive?

as people have mentioned, the problem with Maldonado is his attitude of things never being his fault and that comes from the fact that he is not and never will be an employee and therefore cannot get sacked.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 10:37 (Ref:3339188)   #45
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Yep, it says they ain't got no cash.......
Well, not quite. For 2014, vacancies arose at Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren... three of the top teams all of whom don't require drivers to bring a budget. Collectively they opted to pass on Hulkenberg, di Resta, Bottas etc... which means that [in their eyes] these drivers don't bring enough in terms of talent. They're ostensibly in the same broad category as Maldonado... fighting for seats in the midfield... where money matters and Maldonado has the edge. It's an unremarkable situation really.

I think what we'd like to see is talent rather than money reign supreme outside of the top 3 or 4 teams... but for that to happen, team budgets need to be brought back to that $40M cap agreed a few years back.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 10:38 (Ref:3339190)   #46
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Outside of the USA (I'm thinking mainly NASCAR), how many paid drives are there in the rest of the World?

I reckon it must be less than 100...maybe less than 50?
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 11:56 (Ref:3339210)   #47
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Well, not quite. For 2014, vacancies arose at Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren... three of the top teams all of whom don't require drivers to bring a budget. Collectively they opted to pass on Hulkenberg, di Resta, Bottas etc... which means that [in their eyes] these drivers don't bring enough in terms of talent. They're ostensibly in the same broad category as Maldonado... fighting for seats in the midfield... where money matters and Maldonado has the edge. It's an unremarkable situation really.
My response to this can be summed up thus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxbb5RcqpZM
It's weird that people cannot apply the same logic and reasoning to Hulkenberg, di Resta etc. as they do to Maldonado.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 12:00 (Ref:3339213)   #48
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I find this bloke a bit like a Diniz with a bit more talent.

But at least Pedro was able to get a point now and then, and didnt throw good places away with stupid driving.

That win was proved to be a bit of a fluke as the car was prety good last year and really should ahve been able to get bette results more often, but he did well at times,.

But as Grosjean has shown to learn, this guy really hasnt, and the way he was *****ing and moaning at year end when it was money, not talent that meant he was there was typical of the classless South American attitudes of these drivers at times.

At least guys liek Diniz were honest about why they were there! This guy actually seems to thnk he is good
While I'm always happy to see someone talk about Pedro Diniz in nice terms, the bold bit is just daft.
If a car is good then a win is a flukey win? So every F1 win ever was a fluke?
Just because he should've done better in 2012 than he actually did doesn't mean that the good stuff he did was a fluke.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 12:16 (Ref:3339219)   #49
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My response to this can be summed up thus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxbb5RcqpZM
It's weird that people cannot apply the same logic and reasoning to Hulkenberg, di Resta etc. as they do to Maldonado.
Well they did.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 14:34 (Ref:3339278)   #50
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Well they did.
A fairly blunt response, not sure if I made it clear that I was agreeing with what you were saying or whether there's some sarcasm or whether we're talking about different people (whether you mean the teams did and I mean the fans don't)?
Anyway, the fans don't apply the same logic at all to the various drivers - that's what I was getting at as 'weird'.
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