The Maldonado thing...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

A fairly blunt response, not sure if I made it clear that I was agreeing with what you were saying or whether there's some sarcasm or whether we're talking about different people (whether you mean the teams did and I mean the fans don't)?
Anyway, the fans don't apply the same logic at all to the various drivers - that's what I was getting at as 'weird'.

I knew what you were getting at... sorry for the blunt response It's a consequence of simulatenously working on one laptop while dealing with 10-10ths posts on another.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

The fact is that the Hulk has come very, very, very close to top drives on 3 occasions - 2 with Ferrari and one with Lotus - but in the end because he doesn't have the backing the teams decide to choose a slower pay driver who gets the car home, fills the nice reasonably and will provide good money.

The issue with that is that Maldonado is the best driver who was on the 2013 F1 grid at doing the exact opposite. He won't get the car home and seems to blame the team whenever his teammate is on a different level to him (only a one-off, but looking at the way he comes across as a nasty person I am going to make a judgement here).

Yes, he is rapid, but if he's going to convert his pace into a high-speed avoidable accident rather than into a high finish, then what is the point?!

But at the end of the day, it will only be after 2014 when Lotus will have to use the classic formula:

(Maldonado money + Maldonado revenue - Maldonado repairs) - (Hulkenberg money + Hulkenberg revenue - Hulkenberg repairs)= ..., with the potential of (+ Quantum investment) on the Hulk's side of the coin.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I knew what you were getting at... sorry for the blunt response It's a consequence of simulatenously working on one laptop while dealing with 10-10ths posts on another.

Aah my apologies thought you might not be familiar with the film clip and might have thought I was being sarcastic.
Pub quiz tonight, so cheers!

[Calman]

I've never liked Maldonado .. and probably never will.

I don't doubt he has talent (to some degree), but feel there will always be friction and unprofessional conduct in whatever team he drives for.

Again, it's a shame it comes down to money, as there are several talented drivers (established and rookies) .. who could produce the goods in a Lotus next season.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

The fact is that the Hulk has come very, very, very close to top drives on 3 occasions - 2 with Ferrari and one with Lotus - but in the end because he doesn't have the backing the teams decide to choose a slower pay driver who gets the car home, fills the nice reasonably and will provide good money.

I am one of the first to say that Hulkenberg has been passed over at a fairly unfortunate rate during his young career given the talent he not only has but has been given the opportunity to display directly in an F1 car. That being said, of those 3 times he's been passed over, the only one where he lost out to a pay driver is this instance with Lotus. There are many colourful things one can say about Ferrari, but they took neither Massa or Kimi as a slower pay driver.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by cmk

I am one of the first to say that Hulkenberg has been passed over at a fairly unfortunate rate during his young career given the talent he not only has but has been given the opportunity to display directly in an F1 car. That being said, of those 3 times he's been passed over, the only one where he lost out to a pay driver is this instance with Lotus. There are many colourful things one can say about Ferrari, but they took neither Massa or Kimi as a slower pay driver.

Hulk was actually edged out by Maldonado at Williams and he has now got the jump on him at Lotus.

[davyboy]

Hulkenberg, diResta, Kovalainen etc... really only have themselves to blame for their predicament. They're clearly not good enough to secure a paid seat in F1 - not my opinion but that of the teams that offered paid seats. All that remains are seats that require funding. We can winge and moan that F1 shouldn't work that way, but it does. If these guys really want to stay in F1, they need to be spending every waking hour sourcing and securing funding to buy a seat. Guy Edwards and many others were doing this back in the 1970s so it can't be beyond them today.

[chillibowl]

agreed davyboy. sounds harsh but true.

considering all the modern tools with which a driver has to promote their image and personal brand they really should be out there looking for money. sad reality but reality none the less.

[bella]

yeah, i think that's fair enough. it's a good example of the bewildering entitlement culture in all sport from the guys at the top of most sport - sponsorship deals do not simply come to you. you have to get them. being really good at something is not an excuse for not working hard at the wallet side of things. there are people out there with far better marketing people who will take the sponsors from under your nose.

i think all 3 of the guys that davyboy names have been victims of their own successes and family financial blessings in the early formulae. they've either had the best drives bought for them by their management, manufacturers or by family money. now that has dried up and they're in the real world, who can blame them for being confused about how it happens out here? they're in the same cloud cuckoo land as that the fans who think motorsport is a meritocracy because that's all they've seen of the sport.

i wouldn't call it buying a seat. it's making yourself more appealing to potential employers.

[m355y]

I don't think things have changed that much, but I can understand people being upset about Maldonado/Hulkenberg. In the mid nineties you had pay drivers everywhere, and some of them like Pedro Diniz and Shinji Nakano managed to get themselves in good midfield drives, and pretty much wasted them. That 1997 Prost was potentially a race winning car in the hands of Panis and Trulli for instance, sub that for a 2013 Lotus and I'm thinking "at least Maldonado has actually got a race win on his CV"

It is a huge shame for Hulkenberg and I'd argue that he HAS proved again and again good enough for a strong, paid seat in F1. Kovalainen and co, nah. Heikki had his chance in a McLaren and was pretty crap.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by bella

i think all 3 of the guys that davyboy names have been victims of their own successes and family financial blessings in the early formulae. they've either had the best drives bought for them by their management, manufacturers or by family money. now that has dried up and they're in the real world, who can blame them for being confused about how it happens out here? they're in the same cloud cuckoo land as that the fans who think motorsport is a meritocracy because that's all they've seen of the sport.

As usual bella, you write a lot of sense.
Ironically, these guys may be suffering the same as the young drivers they beat to a seat in lower formulae because it was them who had the money then.
It's the way motorsport is.

[Paradise City]

I think what alot of you guys who are crestfallen with Maldonado getting that Lotus gig is that you are finally waking up to the idea that F1 isn't a pure driving meritocracy.

It's far from that, how much of a driving meritocracy it is depends a lot on the ebb and flow of business cycles but I don't care how prosperous F1 is, it's cash intensive and the phenomena of hired guns of one sort or another, sidelining the latest impoverished hotshot, will be a fixture of F1, until such a time that F1 becomes dirt-cheap and we all be probably long dead before that happens.

My concerns with Pastor isn't his raw talent particularly but that there isn't a person with sufficient stature nor weight in the sport to reign him in and discipline him. There will be fireworks with this guy next year.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think what alot of you guys who are crestfallen with Maldonado getting that Lotus gig is that you are finally waking up to the idea that F1 isn't a pure driving meritocracy.

not the case personally, but i think you're right especially in the wider fandom. the only meritocracies that exist are arguably the factory drives, and even those aren't as pure as say, football or tennis can be at a similar point in a participants career. it can't work like that in motorsport.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

My concerns with Pastor isn't his raw talent particularly but that there isn't a person with sufficient stature nor weight in the sport to reign him in and discipline him. There will be fireworks with this guy next year.

this bolded bit is a very good observation and one i hadn't thought about in that way. excellent point.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

I know F1 is part of the harsh world of business, but this is VERY harsh.

Hulkenberg outdrove "legends" and the supposed "elite few", namely Hamilton and Alonso, Kimi and Rosberg, on occasions at the end of the season in a slower car. The only driver he hasn't truly embarrassed is Vettel. The only driver Maldonado has truly embarrassed is himself, although he's not likely to admit it.

However, I suppose it is what it is, but hopefully come 2015 F1 will have learnt and Bernie can do something about it...

[m355y]

On the subject of sponsorship I wonder if Hulkenberg will get his Katjes tattoo put back on now he's back at FI?! Noticed it had gone this season.

[Moneyseeker]

Poor old Pastor has been out in the sun too long it seems...

Pastor Maldonado believes his 2013 Formula 1 season performance was his best yet, despite struggling at the back of the field with Williams.
The Venezuelan, who won last year's Spanish Grand Prix for the team, managed just one point this season thanks to a 10th-place finish in the Hungarian GP.
Maldonado finished behind rookie team-mate Valtteri Bottas in the standings, and was outqualified by the Finn 12-7 by the end of the year.
Despite that, Maldonado, in his third season in F1, feels 2013 was the best he has driven so far.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111768

[Born Racer]

I'm not convinced Bottas was better than Maldonado in 2013. They looked pretty equal to me (admittedly, I wasn't paying as much attention to them as certain other pairings). That said, if I were to choose between the two purely on talent (so not based on F1 criteria), I'd opt for Bottas because he seems the more sensible of the two.

[Bononi]

No doubt about it.

[Aysedasi]

The man is totally delusional.....

[Bononi]

I'm loving this "The Maldonado thing" thread... hopefully it will keep us entertained through the off season.

[Paradise City]

You can afford to be cocky and egotistical if you are sitting on top of a king's ransom of cash. That said, I don't think happily prancing away from reality is going to win him too many points in the long run.

[JacobP]

I don't get all the obsession over Hulkenberg not getting a Lotus seat. Based on all the rumors, Lotus and Sauber may be some of the financially weakest teams next year. These two have stalled the driver market, clearly because of money talks. The rumors about Sauber's driver lineup are all over the place. There is a rumor also that Hulkenberg wouldn't have chosen to drive for Lotus to begin with and even Maldonado originally preferred to go to Sauber.

[m355y]

I think 2013 was the most mature season we've seen from Maldonado, in that he got to the finish more often than not without clashing wheels with anyone. It's also true to say I think that generally speaking he had the measure of Bottas in the races if not in qualifying. Thing is, I think he should have the measure of somebody in their first season. And by out qualifying him fairly comprehensively Bottas kind of took away the 'raw speed' title from him that everyone pointed to as his strongest suit in 2012. So what else does he have?

One point, a bunch of races just ahead of Caterhams, a cleaner disciplinary record and a team-mate who outpaced him over a single lap. It just isn't enough to gain a move to a big team without a bag full of money and this is the problem.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by JacobP

I don't get all the obsession over Hulkenberg not getting a Lotus seat. Based on all the rumors, Lotus and Sauber may be some of the financially weakest teams next year. These two have stalled the driver market, clearly because of money talks. The rumors about Sauber's driver lineup are all over the place. There is a rumor also that Hulkenberg wouldn't have chosen to drive for Lotus to begin with and even Maldonado originally preferred to go to Sauber.

I'm one of those originally disappointed that he didn't get the Lotus drive. But I wanted him to go there with the backing of Quantem. On paper, Quantem buying 35% of an already established top 4 team is a better option than a Force India or Sauber drive for Nico. Obviously it hasn't happened so I may have to invest in a Force India t-shirt next season. That said, I really like Romain too so let's hope that Lotus can produce another good car. How ironic would it be if Lotus use Maldonardo's money to produce a good car then Grosjean thoroughly trounces Pastor in said equipment.

[chunder]

Ego is very dangerous

Especially in a 600kg missile full of fuel and electricity!

Get him in an F1 stock car, soon knock some sense into the spoiled little s***