[Team] 8 teams with three cars?

[wolfhound]

Has anybody bothered to ask him what was in the back of the last title winning Brabham when he owned the team?

[davyboy]

I'm sure he is serious. He's lobbing grenades left right and centre at the moment in an effort to cause chaos and deflect attention away from the fact that the entire model is broken and has been exposed as such.

[blaffer]

I wouldn't like to see 8 teams with three cars. In a next phase we would have 6 teams with four cars, or 5 teams with 5 cars etc...
Formula One is also about variety and diversity, therefore we need at least 12-13 teams. I'm in favour of a model which allows smaller teams to run custom cars, i.e. chassis delivered by a major team at the beginning of the season (but without 'mandatory' in-season updates from the major team...), or which allows the smallest teams to run only one car, ...

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by blaffer

I wouldn't like to see 8 teams with three cars. In a next phase we would have 6 teams with four cars, or 5 teams with 5 cars etc...
Formula One is also about variety and diversity, therefore we need at least 12-13 teams. I'm in favour of a model which allows smaller teams to run custom cars, i.e. chassis delivered by a major team at the beginning of the season (but without 'mandatory' in-season updates from the major team...), or which allows the smallest teams to run only one car, ...

Any move to fewer larger teams will signal an end to F1 as we know it. At present it is the only open wheel international professional series that requires entrants to build or fund their own designs. Everything else has become one make, through rules or the costs and attrition that occurred during the 90's.

If customer cars were allowed logic would indicate that the cars would have to come from constructors who were building good cars, and probably designs from the previous season.
This would be because of the track record rather than taking a gamble on a new design. So they are unlikely to be a major threat to the constructors team or other major teams. Running a satellite team (As McLaren did in 1974 when they ran a Yardley M23 for Mike Hailwood) or as Red Bull do via STR.

There is no doubt Red Bull would save $$$$ if they could run the same design, effectively 4 Red Bulls and gather the data across both teams. But the idea of effectively acquiring a 'super-team' is why the FIA said no, you must have your own design at STR.
Single car independent team with a year old design is not really a threat to established team but a satellite car may be and it is not what Bernie really wanted. If he gave place to it now it is only because he is being pragmatic, not because it is in his vision for F1

Bernie's vision would be to have 12 manufacturer funded teams that wouldn't need to worry about money but that will never happen. Its all too expensive.

[davyboy]

I'm not sure that long term F1 will be able to sustain high budget campaigns whether they're undertaken by manufacturers or independents. Factor in the fickle nature of manufacturer's commitment to things like this and maybe it's time to call it a day on that era and leave F1 to non constructor independent teams only in a GP2 / Super Formula type environment. If manufacturers or constructors want to experiment with new technologies then LMP and GTs is where they should do it.

[miatanut]

So much for F1 being the pinnacle.

[Casper]

Larger teams are dangerous and the concept is rife with problems for a lot of reasons. The biggest one I see is if the team owner wakes up one morning and decides he is leaving the support and maybe four or six cars disappear from the grid. No way will they go down that road, imagine what would happen if Mercedes got totally P'd off with the present shenanigans and pulled the pin, no motors for half the grid would be the result. The F1 circus (very apt I thought) have in effect painted themselves into a corner with two motor suppliers as it stands. To repeat that with larger teams would be an exercise in total stupidity.

[JeremySmith]

Let's face it its a crap idea...

[Paradise City]

There should be a focus now on providing a blood infusion of new teams so F1 can get the circulation going. They will have to suck up an embarrassing, cringeworthy and fragile '15 season though that may very well see a drop to 16 cars.

I don't necessarily see an abandonment or reduction in the number of constructor-teams as an imperative though. A clampdown on technology is needed. There's still constructors in various categories but, again, gotta get rid of the expensive technological garbage.

I'm happy for a budget cap. Just need to see a system that's up to the job before I have confidence in that solution.

For all my remarks here - the sport will probably go the route of being a three-make formula with a pack of customers in the end.

[bjohnsonsmith]

In the early 70s some teams would sometimes run a third car, though BRM would regularly field three cars but then they had access to all that tobacco money from Marlboro. These days, with the current global economic climate, would a company like Petronas be willing to stump up more money for Mercedes to run a third car, despite Mercedes dominant form this season?

In IndyCar, some teams run multiple entries because they can use different sponsors for their cars, hence the different liveries. Maybe that's the way forward for F1. It would open the door for more sponsors, bringing more sponsor's money.

[chillibowl]

Mclaren certainly seem to have had (or were given?) a little more freedom of late to run different liverys for different races. thought that was nice.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Mclaren certainly seem to have had (or were given?) a little more freedom of late to run different liverys for different races. thought that was nice.

I noticed that. In the years I've been following F1 and that's since the '70s, I've never understood why teams can't use different liveries? This question may seem off topic but it ties in with my previous post about attracting new sponsors so teams can run a third car or more, as they do in IndyCar.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Mclaren certainly seem to have had (or were given?) a little more freedom of late to run different liverys for different races. thought that was nice.

The car looked really nice at the weekend with the yellow SAP branding...

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I noticed that. In the years I've been following F1 and that's since the '70s, I've never understood why teams can't use different liveries? This question may seem off topic but it ties in with my previous post about attracting new sponsors so teams can run a third car or more, as they do in IndyCar.

The ruling got silly when BAR wanted one car in 555 blue and one car in Lucky Strike white black and red... Bernie and Max said no so they split it down the middle.... half 555 blue and half Lucky Strike.

McLaren have been black and silver all year. Its just the branding that has been switched around although in Sochi SAP was black lettering on a white insignia, black pods. In Austin SAP was what looked like big bold lettering SAP in McLaren's original papaya orange... on black pods, no background insignia. No Johnnie Walker either but Mobil prominent on wing and helmets

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The ruling got silly when BAR wanted one car in 555 blue and one car in Lucky Strike white black and red... Bernie and Max said no so they split it down the middle.... half 555 blue and half Lucky Strike.

McLaren have been black and silver all year. Its just the branding that has been switched around although in Sochi SAP was black lettering on a white insignia, black pods. In Austin SAP was what looked like big bold lettering SAP in McLaren's original papaya orange... on black pods, no background insignia. No Johnnie Walker either but Mobil prominent on wing and helmets

I remember the BAR car and no offence but that doesn't answer my question as to why a team has to have a uniform livery?

I liked the McLaren SAP livery.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I remember the BAR car and no offence but that doesn't answer my question as to why a team has to have a uniform livery?

I liked the McLaren SAP livery.

At that time the FIA (Max) ruled that a team had to have the same livery across both cars and it needed to be the same or similar (subject to permission to change or modify it) across a season. I think it goes back to Bernie's preference for things to be neat and in order.

Think of a car dealer who arranges the cars in his yard in groups according to some predetermined order like age, colour, style or model and you would get the idea of a fastidious manager/owner of the yard. Bernie is like that.

[Paradise City]

I remember Mosley himself openly said it was sloppy, haughtly said this isn't Indycar and forced BAR to relent. Also plugging two cigarrette brands was very cheeky during a time when Mosley was doing alot of heavy lifting getting exemptions from the politicians in some countries to allow ciggarrette advertising whilst looking to steer the sport away from them in the long term.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I remember Mosley himself openly said it was sloppy, haughtly said this isn't Indycar and forced BAR to relent. Also plugging two cigarrette brands was very cheeky during a time when Mosley was doing alot of heavy lifting getting exemptions from the politicians in some countries to allow ciggarrette advertising whilst looking to steer the sport away from them in the long term.

That too. They had worked together for 25 years so were really quite used to supporting each other and getting what they wanted.

[S griffin]

The last time a team ran 2 different liveries was Brazil 2008 when DC ran a Wings for Life livery in his last race in F1. Mark Webber had the normal livery in the over RBR.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

At that time the FIA (Max) ruled that a team had to have the same livery across both cars and it needed to be the same or similar (subject to permission to change or modify it) across a season. I think it goes back to Bernie's preference for things to be neat and in order.

Think of a car dealer who arranges the cars in his yard in groups according to some predetermined order like age, colour, style or model and you would get the idea of a fastidious manager/owner of the yard. Bernie is like that.

Thanks. Well F1 is certainly not neat and/or in order at the moment. I think a relaxing of the rules could be a way forward for teams to run a third car.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Thanks. Well F1 is certainly not neat and/or in order at the moment. I think a relaxing of the rules could be a way forward for teams to run a third car.

I really think the third car idea is bad for the sport, they would not score points, so what is the point apart from making up numbers....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I really think the third car idea is bad for the sport, they would not score points, so what is the point apart from making up numbers....

Why wouldn't a 3rd car score points? If you've got a half decent driver and relatively competative car, there's no reason why they couldn't score points, it all adds to the teams Contructor's hopes.

[JeremySmith]

I don't think it would be allowed, is the impression I have been given...
I could be totally wrong on this ....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I don't think it would be allowed, is the impression I have been given...
I could be totally wrong on this ....

What would be the point, no pun intended, of running a 3rd car?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What would be the point, no pun intended, of running a 3rd car?

I think that the points would not be allowed to towards the WCC...
Maybe someone else knows how this would work...