"The Falling Sky" 2/3 Holden, 1/3 Ford??

[SJA]

As suggested by GTR in the Silly Season thread, it looks like the time has come to discuss the manufacturer split in V8 land.

I personally don't see the world in Red or Blue, I believe a lot of Gen Y V8 fans are much the same, or maybe I speak for myself, I don't know.

I love motorsport because I see it as a truly team sport. The entry that has had the business know-how to get together a budget, the engineering know-how to put together a race winning package (or once again, has had the business prowess to make the right alliences), the right crew to prep and run the car, the pit stops, the judgment calls in terms of stratigy, weather, fuel etc. Back to engineering and set up - a car that can look after it's tyres and conserve fuel. The chemistry and leadership within a team to "make it all work (as one)". Finally, the organic componant that fills the space between the chair and the steering wheel.

I even go as far to say we put way too much weight on the drivers championship in modern V8 supercar racing. It has just as much to do with every other componant (mechanical, electical and organic) that got that entry to that result at the end of the day.

Every winner, unlike in other sports, is a trully deserving winner in motorsport. They got it right on the day where everyone else got it wrong.

I digress. Modern V8 Supercars - what is the difference between a modern Falcon and modern Commodore V8 Supercar? As Larko went through on the Bathurst telecast - body panelling (styling) and the engine...

I think some of you old timers need to let the whole Holden Vs Ford thing go. We are lucky enough to have one of the best racing catagories in the world here. The entertainment will not suffer if there is more of one make that the other - they are the same freaking car anyway.

What are you Ford fans really upset about? I have a theory that may ruffle a few feathers... I think you are actually upset about Ford's handling of it's motorsport budget, policy and FPR's inability to deliver and their poor driver choices (S Richards, Dumbrell).

Ford fans, don't target your anger at Holden for capatilising where Ford failed, where Ford have mis-handled, bungled, blame Ford.

Even better, just let it go. Insted I offer this suggestion. Start looking beyond manufactuers - The cars you see going round the circuit are not Fords or Holdens anyway. So if you only see the world in red or blue, I think your time could be better spent restoring an old GT Falcon or Monaro if that's your thing, that would be closer to your passion.

If you ever feel like coming back and watching some great racing, I suggest you start looking at each entry in detail - who owns the REC, who owns the hardware, who owns the team, who runs the team, who there on the engineering side of things, right down to the driver. If there is an entry that has everything you like mixed into it and you can relate to the personnel morally and relate to the great personalities involved, they are the entries you should support, no matter what the make!

For all the above reasons I support in 2009
#22, #24, #9, #7, #15, #11, #16, #8, #12, #33, #34, #39, #67, #55, #111 & #77 (R.I.P)

There are different reasons for all of them. You will notice some are Holden, some are Ford. You might notice that only one entry from some teams I actually support. Let me tell you I might have been born into a Holden family, but I'm not going to follow both HRT cars just because dad says I should, not if I think one of the drivers is a complete ******. The reality is I dont support Walkinshaw at all, but the drivers in the cars of #22 and #24 is what makes me lend my support, with out them I couldn't car less about HRT/Walkinshaw.

If it came down to a final drag between Van Giz and Tander, I'd be out of my chair screaming for Van Giz!

Anyway, Im rambling - If you made it this far, thankyou for reading. I'm not trying to inflict my views on you - I'm just trying to provoke some thought, some deep thought - beyond blue, beyond red.

Thank you

[STEALTHY]

Said everything i was thinking, just with a better vocabulary


I follow, in this order #39 + 67, #25, #7 + 15, #17 (wish i could say 18 too, but can't follow mr smash every race)

[V8 Fireworks]

It's all standardised, but IMO Ford and Holden are bigger than V8 Supercars not vice versa. Both brands represent decades of iconic cars IMO. Racing teams come and go.

[cavvy]

Maybe some V8 fans who believe it is Holden or Ford might start to appreciate the driver - IMHO those whose opinions of Craig Lowndes change depending on the make of car he drives arent motor racing fans.

Not a big fan of the current formula 'pit stop'.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by SJA

I think some of you old timers need to let the whole Holden Vs Ford thing go. - they are the same freaking car anyway.
Ford fans, don't target your anger at Holden for capatilising where Ford failed, where Ford have mis-handled, bungled, blame Ford.

Well said. This is one of the better thread starters I have seen here in a while. I fall into the category, however I completely agree, it ain't a Holden vs Ford thing any more. Most of the teams don't look at it that way (other than when it is time to suck up to the Ford/GM corporate dudes), it's mainly a fanboy issue. But it is promoted and will continue to be, by V8SC. Then, of course, there is the merchandising factor. If there isn't a red v blue issue, there goes a big chunk of revenue.

[Oldtony]

Well said.
If you are a really really timer though this whole Hoden Ford thing has become a bit of a put off.
Don't get me wrong V8SC is great entertainment, and very good TV action but it ceased to have any real relativity to brand as soon as it replaced proper touring car racing. I guess to some 20 years is a long tradition but the first time this rather xenophobic (please expliane Pauline) thing really appeared was the infamous dias ceremony after the GTR won Bathurst.
Suppose it's a bit like Coles and Woolies, 2 brands give you the perception of competition while it is all a nice cosy duopoly.
Keep the entertainment as it is but introduce some more badges maybe?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It's all standardised, but IMO Ford and Holden are bigger than V8 Supercars not vice versa. Both brands represent decades of iconic cars IMO. Racing teams come and go.

I agree.......and as it stands for 2010 IMHO.......probably not worth watching.

[peckstar]

the way i see it, this year 3 ford based teams were challenging for wins and two holden based teams. Next year the way i see it 3 ford teams will be challenging for wins and 3 holden teams. and at the end of the day, only one car can win


Support your teams if thats what you prefer, support your drivers if thats what you prefer, support your marque or support your sponsor. The series needs all those supporters. One is not better than the other, even if some elitists think they are.

[twinwebbers]

I shall merely stand here in front of my computer and applaud.... Awesome post SJA.

I'll fly the 888 flag proudly next year because I think Roland, Craig, Jamie and the team are the best at what they do. Nothing more nothing less.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

the way i see it, this year 3 ford based teams were challenging for wins and two holden based teams. Next year the way i see it 3 ford teams will be challenging for wins and 3 holden teams. and at the end of the day, only one car can win


Support your teams if thats what you prefer, support your drivers if thats what you prefer, support your marque or support your sponsor. The series needs all those supporters. One is not better than the other, even if some elitists think they are.

Theres a big difference between being an elitist and being intelligent. If anyone follows the 'marque' for being that marque, they have issues.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Theres a big difference between being an elitist and being intelligent. If anyone follows the 'marque' for being that marque, they have issues.

I believe that you are like that......if 2/3rds of the field were Fords.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by peckstar

the way i see it, this year 3 ford based teams were challenging for wins and two holden based teams. Next year the way i see it 3 ford teams will be challenging for wins and 3 holden teams. and at the end of the day, only one car can win.

The problem is not so much the championship, the problem is Bathurst as evidenced this year and set to become a bigger problem in 2010. A few incidents, a few mechanical failures and then there is no Fords left racing.

[MarkInTheStands]

Firstly, unlike most on this Forum seem to claim, I think most fans of the V8's know these are not production based cars, indeed for the most part we are becoming a silhouette series, and personally I have no problem with that.

The comment that they are all one Make is a little off. I think there are 6 or so Makes in the field, FPR, SBR, 888, WP, PE and PMM, PMM will go next year making it 5 make in the series, with 2 Marques

There is freedoms to a degree in Roll Cage design which affects the way the car acts, yes the "Pick-up" points are the same but there are some freedoms to improve the cars.

But it seems most who deride this sport as a one make series, draw a parallel to the so call ignorant fans of the sport. That people follow the sport and go out and by a Falcon or Commodore because they have seen its performance on the race track.

This is where I disagree, People follow Ford of Holden because it is there "side" they support their side the same as they support their football team. If anyone buys a car these day purely on their race performance then they are true knuckle draggers and in reality most probably won’t have the $45,000 or more to by a new V8 Falcon or Commodore.

But if you consider the cars, like an NRL clubs Jerseys, it gets a little easier to understand sides and if that is what swings a person during the purchasing of a new car then all the better.

People who buy jerseys don't put them on an expect to be able to play like Jarryd Hayne or Buddy Franklin, but they wear them to support their side. I believe the same can be said for V8Fans, they don't by a V8 Falcon or Commodore and expect to be able to drive as fast, or accurately as a race car driver, even if they take their V8 falcon or Commodore for a track day. They know there are parts to the cars that make them better, faster, stronger and in the end are happy to have a car that is a similar shape to a race winner in the V8 Series, but more importantly to wear the same Badge as the Race Winner.

Motorsport in the country used to be a test of Machinery, but the event and the show now dictates it is a matter of driver and as near as is practical we are getting closer and closer to a driver series.

So then as SJA says it is down to your respective motorsport teams under the Marques to sign the best talent to compete for your team. The same as in the NRL and to a point the AFL. You have to have a good front office to secede. Ford dropped the ball a little back in 2008, but some have always said that 888 are mercinaries and will always go with the $$$. Even when they joined back in 2004 that was the scuttle but around the Paddock.

If Ford fans are still upset, disappointed that this year’s highest ranking "Ford Team" at the Mountain was well out of the top 10, then we know how Holden fans felt in 2007 when it was Frosty/Richo, vs Lowndes and Whinners with JC and Bessy and Junior and Will all in the fight. Hell Brighty was also in that fight. The nearest commodore was Murph and the Factory or Psudo factory Holdens were nowhere to be seen.

The Sky isn't fall Ford fans, things are changing, sure but I believe that even looking at the Championship table right now, there are going to be more than enough challenges to step up and have a shot for the Blue oval next year, Who knows the 2nd year of car development and some race miles may see some teams "Manage" their luck better.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I believe that you are like that......if 2/3rds of the field were Fords.

Either way, the cars would be the same. Just 2/3rds would have ford headlights, which wouldn't sway my following in anyway

[Axeman444]

so because I support Ford because the first Bathurst i saw involved a large rock and a Falcon, i should be disillusioned with the current racing???

I Support DJR, always have, always will. I also support Ford, always have, always will. However i don't consider myself one-eyed, i can see merits of other drivers/teams/manufacturers, just as i can see the opposite in some Ford drivers/teams. I may admire a few Holden drivers and teams, and may want them to do better than other Holden (and maybe even a Ford) team, but there is no chance i will support them...

[Bevan-L]

i cant wait to see hyundai and daewoo compete!!!!

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

so because I support Ford because the first Bathurst i saw involved a large rock and a Falcon, i should be disillusioned with the current racing???

I Support DJR, always have, always will. I also support Ford, always have, always will. However i don't consider myself one-eyed, i can see merits of other drivers/teams/manufacturers, just as i can see the opposite in some Ford drivers/teams. I may admire a few Holden drivers and teams, and may want them to do better than other Holden (and maybe even a Ford) team, but there is no chance i will support them...

Theres a difference between supporting a team who has ford funding, or in DJRs case, has always run fords, and supporting DJR because they race falcons. Lets not confuse what i'm saying (Which is pretty clear). You know they don't run falcons, they just have a ford badge on the grill.

[SJA]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

so because I support Ford because the first Bathurst i saw involved a large rock and a Falcon, i should be disillusioned with the current racing???

I Support DJR, always have, always will. I also support Ford, always have, always will. However i don't consider myself one-eyed, i can see merits of other drivers/teams/manufacturers, just as i can see the opposite in some Ford drivers/teams. I may admire a few Holden drivers and teams, and may want them to do better than other Holden (and maybe even a Ford) team, but there is no chance i will support them...

Would you still support DJR if they made the switch to Holden, Axeman?

[Axeman444]

i am really unsure on that one, would have to ask me IF it happens, as i honestly don't know as a hypothetical. But if they did, and i did, i would expect them to then have equal billing with someone on the non-dark side

and stealthy the fact they have run fords contributes to why i have always supported them. so you could say i am sitting astride the fence

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

and stealthy the fact they have run fords contributes to why i have always supported them. so you could say i am sitting astride the fence

I guess i'll never understand that line of thinking. I follow them aswell, not because of their car, moreso because the respect I have for DJ, happy to have a chat with me, whilst wearing (wait for it) a holden teams shirt and hat, but still treated me as if i was the number 1 DJR fan. Total opposite to some Holden personalities.
He did lose points for hiring courtney tho.....

[Axeman444]

because at the 1st race i saw i decided to follow Ford and what was to become DJR. The fact that they were coexisting at the time and since only helped things for the future...

[mountainstar]

I seem to recall back in the 1990's at times, Holdens outnumbered the Fords by a significant margin and no one hit the panic button then.

Ford as a company is resurgent and in 2011 I'm sure they will find a way to one up Holden. Holden pulled a good one off with the 888 deal. I'm sure Ford wont make that mistake again.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I seem to recall back in the 1990's at times, Holdens outnumbered the Fords by a significant margin and no one hit the panic button then.

Ford as a company is resurgent and in 2011 I'm sure they will find a way to one up Holden. Holden pulled a good one off with the 888 deal. I'm sure Ford wont make that mistake again.

Back in the 1990's there were people that were not happy about the situation but where were you to voice your opinion? Internet forums were non-existant AFAIK.

[Belly13]

I'm GRM, through and through (as if most of you didn't know). Garry Rogers could drive any make of car and I'd support him. For me, motorsport is just like football. I support the team and not necessarily the players/drivers. If one player/driver moves on, I don't support them anymore because they are no longer a part of the team which I support.
There seems to be an increasing trend in V8 Supercar fans beginning to support drivers, and to a lesser extent individual teams, now over the whole Holden vs Ford thing. It stills exists but it isn't as relevant or noticeable as it was 10-odd years ago.

[Rombles1]

Just back from buying bandaids for my knuckles. I am a Holden fan. I bought one of the HSV Dealer Team VZ Clubsports - the ultimate team merchandise.

The great thing about being a Holden fan - as opposed to a fan of a single driver or team - is that if my favourite gets taken out, I can still cheer for whichever of my other preferred Holdens is still out there. Generally I would rather see every Holden finish in order (behind the Kelly boys) before any of the Fords. However, recently I have found myself watching a couple of the Fords without my usual loathing. Brighty - great bloke, great driver. I look forward to him being back in a Holden next year. Frosty, I would happily have in a Holden. The Giz I would happily have in a Holden. Lowsey and Whingecup? Ford were welcome to them.

So, next year, I will find myself hoping that a couple of Fords finish pretty well, and a couple of Holdens finish at the back (or not at all, even? Am I allowed to wish that?)

When Ambrose went to the US, I found it pretty easy to support him after hating him here, because even though he was in a Ford, I still respected the fact that he was representing Australia (unofficially). Then when he went to Toyota, some of that evaporated. I think it was actually because I respect Ford for what support they do give to V8 Supercars. Toyota give them nothing. They may make great cars (apparently) but I just don't like Toyota.

It would be interesting to see how I would handle the Kelly boys moving to Toyota (god forbid). That would be a test of loyalty that I hope to never have to take.