[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by JAG

The Chinese market is too big to ignore and rapidly expanding, as are other future WEC possibilities, India, Russia and the aformentioned South America.

You only need look at F1 to see how traditional events have had to up their game to compete, Silverstone and Spa have both been threatened, France doesn't even have a round.

This is not F1 where everything centres around money. Traditional circuits are disappearing because they can't pay their yearly seventy billion dollar bills for uncle Bernie if they wanna host a Grand Prix. Most events in F1 are financed and supported by rich goverments who want to promote their country, and that has nothing to do with market areas or anything else. You think Ferrari cares about Korean or whatever Nicaraguan Grand Prixs they are competing at?

Russia can't even hold an FIA GT3 event so I wouldn't hold my breath on that one

[JAG]

Sportscar racing doesn't need any part of vanity projects in far off places, it does need a foothold in regions that will become major markets for the auto industry.

F1 continues it's attempts to break NA because it's a market that cannot be ignored, especially for a sport with stakeholders that sell products and services the world over.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JAG

The Chinese market is too big to ignore and rapidly expanding, as are other future WEC possibilities, India, Russia and the aformentioned South America.

You only need look at F1 to see how traditional events have had to up their game to compete, Silverstone and Spa have both been threatened, France doesn't even have a round.

That's to do with Bernie dictating the terms. He knows he can go to countries like S. Korea or India and sell them the exclusivity of hosting their very own GP and paying him $25 million for the privalege. If the facilities aren't upgraded to Bernie's spec, then you'll lose the GP as happened to France and nearly happened to Silverstone.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by JAG

Sportscar racing doesn't need any part of vanity projects in far off places, it does need a foothold in regions that will become major markets for the auto industry.

Yes they need to do that but sometimes it's not wise to to grant every wish of Audi and Peugeot and ignore everyone else. Travelling to distant places makes life difficult for smaller teams, especially GTs, and unless you want to see something as ridiculous as Zhuhai last year (23 cars in SEVEN classes?!) you must make compromises.

Also, ACO is not exactly experienced when it comes to organizing races themselves. Yes they have Le Mans and some obscure stand-alone events here and there but when it comes to championships, they've always relied on other parties and series such as ELMS & ALMS, and then just picked up the goods. ILMC being the perfect example.

[JAG]

Travelling costs are an issue but these will be partially covered and is one of the reasons it's difficult to fit both PLM and Brazil into the schedule. Total miles travelled, I'm not sure what would be greater, the WEC or ALMS.

[nasdriv87]

Originally Posted by courageous

All this talk of a Brazilian round, I'm supprised nobody has mentioned the mess that happened when LMS took over the Milles Milhaus (sp) in Brazil - virtually killing the event.

"I hope do u understand all from my not so good english"

it was not only lms fault about that "killing the event", cuz many ppl from brazil motorsport boycoted it all...

here some drivers, promoters and organizers love old cars races and hate technology cars like gt, cuz they say they will kill all races and when they go away who is going to be left ?!?!

mil miles from interlagos used to be a mess at last years, mainly about organizers, drivers and promotters

the 2007 lms event was the final breath from it...

[nasdriv87]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's difficult enough when Sao Paulo hosts the GP. The incident with Jenson Button springs to mind.

omg, can't believe at all

i live here since i was born and it did not happen so much like jenson stated, off course it was a terrible event, but we don't have any event like that u have in the England such as last events at streets...

and nope i'm not a racist at all

so come to brazil and see it from your own eyes man... we don't live like a jungle here as sometimes ABC television makes some coverage from here inside a park to say, "look they live in a jungle yet..."

c'mom... :P

[Purist]

That's not the issue. It's that the crime rate is substantially higher than in the US or several of the major European countries. However, from what a number of people have said, Sao Paolo is a good bit safer than is Rio.

[nasdriv87]

Originally Posted by Purist

That's not the issue. It's that the crime rate is substantially higher than in the US or several of the major European countries. However, from what a number of people have said, Sao Paolo is a good bit safer than is Rio.

in this case i must agree with!!!

[AndrewF31]

With the economy in the state that it is, and the lack of money in Sportscar racing, it would be foolish of the FIA and ACO to stretch the purse of the teams in termos of 'long-distance' traveling. Now, if the travel costs are completely covered by FIA and ACO, it's just a question of them doing a good enough study to discover if the benefits of going to PLM or Brazil. Certainly, going to Brazil will cost more so the event has to have a superior profit level, proportionally. Without that, it's folly to go to Brazil.
The worst they could do is go, force some teams not to go because they don't have the money, start adding more races long distance just for the fun of it, and screw the long term sustainability of the championship.

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by JAG

Sportscar racing doesn't need any part of vanity projects in far off places, it does need a foothold in regions that will become major markets for the auto industry.

F1 continues it's attempts to break NA because it's a market that cannot be ignored, especially for a sport with stakeholders that sell products and services the world over.

I keep hearing about how "important" these Asian-Pacific races outside of Japan and Australia are but every time you just end up with the same result: An event with no prestige, A track with no history or significance, 23 entries(give or take a few), no fan support, no local publicity what so ever... and this is suppose to build a future market? But yet somehow its worth sacrificing guaranteed money makers and promotional giants such as PLM and Sebring just to establish a "new market".

[JAG]

You only need look at attendances from Group C and recently Super GT to see the potential for sportscars in the region. ACO racing needs to re-establish itself in the area to garner greater manufactuer and fan interest.

It's said how deserving Sebring and PLM are of a place in the WEC and I agree, but without international entrants and spec cars they'd be looking at under thirty entries.

[Deleted]

They've tried to "establish" themselves in Asia millions of times in the last decade or so, and it has never worked out.

Fuji 1000km 1999 - disappointment in terms of entries and interest
Asian Pacific Le Mans Series - Adelaide ALMS round was held but the new series itself never materialised
Japan Le Mans Challenge - lasted a while but grids were absolutely terrible and literally no-one cared
Asian Le Mans series - 2008 race was cancelled, only one of the planned 2009 rounds was held
Zhuhai 2010 - the race saw literally no improvement in terms of entries or interest, despite being part of the ILMC

Why would things be anything different now, sure they'll get some minor extra publicity and entries because it's a world championship event but still

[Nick6]

I couldn't find any records of Group C racing in China. If you were referring to the Japanese races then your comparing apples to oranges as back then Japan had its own national Group C series and has established motor racing events along with some vital things such as fan support and local coverage.

Now in 1985 WEC did go to Malaysia. The entry for the race was an amazing 16 cars!!!

PLM and Sebring are established enough on their own to draw non-championship entries and provide decent fan and media support without the ILMC. Take 2009 for example. Private teams are only willing to go half way across the world under 2 conditions: 1 someone pays for it or 2 the organizer or promoter is offering a large prize fund. Neither of the 2 are happening. SuperGT is probably close enough to where most of their teams will enter non-Japanese races and the media coverage and publicity is probably fairly strong outside of Japan in the region. ACO/FIA racing not so much... is the 24 hours of Lemans even covered in Zuhai?

[Purist]

SuperGT is confined to Japan, and a lone round in Malaysia. They do NOT visit China, India, Korea, Sri Lanka, Singapore, or Indonesia. I'm not sure what sort of crowd SuperGT gets in Malaysia.

Group C ran in Japan, and Malaysia once. The WSC race at Shah Alam in 1985 had a reported crowd of 8,000. The 1982-88 WSC races at Fuji had reported crowds of 78,500-86,000. The 1989-92 Suzuka races reported 25,000-45,000 in attendance. The 1991 Autopolis race figure that I've seen was 38,300.

I wouldn't be averse to an Australian round, on top of the core, established races. The 2000 event at Adelaide had a reported weekend crowd of 135,000, and 76,000 on race day.

BTW, the crowd figure I see listed for the 2007 Mil Milhas is 5,000. That's LESS than the figures for most of the rounds in the 2006-07 JLMC.

In these new markets, people have to actually know and care about the races taking place there. Otherwise, I don't see how it does a damn thing for the manufacturers. Not to mention, tracks that appear almost devoid of any spectators during the races look pretty bad on TV, so it looks dumb, and is bad PR. Of course, rather few people in those countries can afford Western ticket prices. On top of that, the "top" circuit in China specifically charges everyone an arm and a leg to use the place because of the F1 sanction fee, and I think Zhuhai would be a traffic nightmare with a "large" grid for an LM type race. Goldenport, Chengdu, Guangdong, and Ordos aren't even worth considering as venues for this sort of event.

And for those talking about Russia, even if it's mainly in reference to F1, forget about it! That country has nil for a middle class. And the people who aren't the few, lucky ones are trying to leave in significant numbers. Russia's population has been declining for some time now. Apart from that, they can't even manage to pull off a GT3 sprint race, much less a Smolensk 1000km!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

In these new markets, people have to actually know and care about the races taking place there. Otherwise, I don't see how it does a damn thing for the manufacturers. Not to mention, tracks that appear almost devoid of any spectators during the races look pretty bad on TV, so it looks dumb, and is bad PR. Of course, rather few people in those countries can afford Western ticket prices. On top of that, the "top" circuit in China specifically charges everyone an arm and a leg to use the place because of the F1 sanction fee, and I think Zhuhai would be a traffic nightmare with a "large" grid for an LM type race. Goldenport, Chengdu, Guangdong, and Ordos aren't even worth considering as venues for this sort of event!

That makes alot of sense. If the emerging professional/middle classes in China are going to buy a luxury, european car like Porsche or BMW it's not going to be because China has hosted a 1000km race. As we've seen with GPs like China, attendance is low as they have no real interest in motorsports. They will buy these cars because of the association with prestige and status.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Purist

SuperGT is confined to Japan, and a lone round in Malaysia. They do NOT visit China, India, Korea, Sri Lanka, Singapore, or Indonesia. I'm not sure what sort of crowd SuperGT gets in Malaysia.

Group C ran in Japan, and Malaysia once. The WSC race at Shah Alam in 1985 had a reported crowd of 8,000. The 1982-88 WSC races at Fuji had reported crowds of 78,500-86,000. The 1989-92 Suzuka races reported 25,000-45,000 in attendance. The 1991 Autopolis race figure that I've seen was 38,300.

I wouldn't be averse to an Australian round, on top of the core, established races. The 2000 event at Adelaide had a reported weekend crowd of 135,000, and 76,000 on race day.

BTW, the crowd figure I see listed for the 2007 Mil Milhas is 5,000. That's LESS than the figures for most of the rounds in the 2006-07 JLMC.

In these new markets, people have to actually know and care about the races taking place there. Otherwise, I don't see how it does a damn thing for the manufacturers. Not to mention, tracks that appear almost devoid of any spectators during the races look pretty bad on TV, so it looks dumb, and is bad PR. Of course, rather few people in those countries can afford Western ticket prices. On top of that, the "top" circuit in China specifically charges everyone an arm and a leg to use the place because of the F1 sanction fee, and I think Zhuhai would be a traffic nightmare with a "large" grid for an LM type race. Goldenport, Chengdu, Guangdong, and Ordos aren't even worth considering as venues for this sort of event.

And for those talking about Russia, even if it's mainly in reference to F1, forget about it! That country has nil for a middle class. And the people who aren't the few, lucky ones are trying to leave in significant numbers. Russia's population has been declining for some time now. Apart from that, they can't even manage to pull off a GT3 sprint race, much less a Smolensk 1000km!

Not to mention the "crowd" at the Zhuhai ILMC race last year. I am happy about the possibility of a Japanese round at Fuji next year. Thank goodness they arent going to have 2 Chinese rounds in 2012 like was suggested by the ILMC people earlier in the year. Super GT is a stupid argument because Japan (and Australia) seem to have a completely different level of love for motorsport than other countries in the area.

If I were to replace Petit Le Mans it would be with a Canadian or Australian round. For a South American round I would not mind Potrero de Los Funes. My opinion of Interlagos would probably not go down well on this forum.

[Deleted]

JLMC rounds had like 10 entries (in 4 classes) so attendance figures were second priority... more or less a total failure.

Adelaide round would be a dream come true but it's never gonna happen again, is it. Australian GT is running as a support act for the Clipsal 500, but that's hardly a substitutor for Race of a Thousand Years

[AGD]

Why China and South America? Because the manufacturer(s) want those races. We should probably consider ourselves lucky if there aren't two races in China each year! It's an odd situation for Peugeot because they are the big driving force behind wanting those races, but will they spend any money to promote those events?

Also, there are probably business and maybe ego reasons as well. The ACO may not like it that the 2nd and 3rd biggest events on the WEC calendar are ALMS events. Maybe they want a bigger chunk of the pie so they are taking a risk by cultivating new venues. Also, there are the TV rights issues and possible pit lane restricts that have to be dealt with at shared venues.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Chiana

They've tried to "establish" themselves in Asia millions of times in the last decade or so, and it has never worked out.

Fuji 1000km 1999 - disappointment in terms of entries and interest
Asian Pacific Le Mans Series - Adelaide ALMS round was held but the new series itself never materialised
Japan Le Mans Challenge - lasted a while but grids were absolutely terrible and literally no-one cared
Asian Le Mans series - 2008 race was cancelled, only one of the planned 2009 rounds was held
Zhuhai 2010 - the race saw literally no improvement in terms of entries or interest, despite being part of the ILMC

Why would things be anything different now, sure they'll get some minor extra publicity and entries because it's a world championship event but still

The last time there where any serious Le Mans based events in Asia was during the Group C era, everything since has lacked commitment and focus. On my own doorstep the LMS has offered large grids but isn't a replacement for a World Championship.

The greater goal of racing in Asia is to attract local manufactuers, if Ford or Dodge joined Corvette there'd be a better case for Sebring and PLM. The direction of NA sportscar racing can't be predicted, would anyone rule out a WEC round at Austin, Montreal, Watkins Glen, Daytona or say for certain tha ALMS will continue to exist in it's current form?

[TF110]

Suzuka, Honda, Toyota and Nissan, those 4 words are all you need for lots of action, lots of people, and a great race!

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Purist

.............I wouldn't be averse to an Australian round, on top of the core, established races. The 2000 event at Adelaide had a reported weekend crowd of 135,000, and 76,000 on race day...............

And the strange part about this, is that Adelaide is generally accepted as being the capital of Australia. Apparently, behind the scenes politics (and legal action) played its part in the demise of the Race of a thousand years, which is a damn shame. Adelaide puts on, arguably, the best and most successful round of V8SC each year, here in Australia, and does so on a temporary street circuit.
But all this discussion about crowd attendances really doesn't mean much to the stakeholders in WEC. It's all about future markets isn't it? The fans mustn't fall into that category.

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

It's all about future markets isn't it? The fans mustn't fall into that category.

Something that is mind blowing when the attendance in future markets is near zero and constant attempts to break into their markets have been failures (see Chiana's post above).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

Something that is mind blowing when the attendance in future markets is near zero and constant attempts to break into their markets have been failures (see Chiana's post above).

Just look at where F1 has expanded to, it hasn't been a resounding success. The attendance figures in China and Turkey are very low and they had to bus people in to attend the S. Korean GP. The only one who benefits from this is Bernie, with his fee of $25 million and selling of the TV rights.

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Just look at where F1 has expanded to, it hasn't been a resounding success. The attendance figures in China and Turkey are very low and they had to bus people in to attend the S. Korean GP. The only one who benefits from this is Bernie, with his fee of $25 million and selling of the TV rights.

I was going to mention that example.

If the seats aren't selling, are new markets at least watching on TV?