FIA Formula Two / FIA F2 - 2012 Season

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Good points.

Yes I thought about the 14 year old Melandri when he first burst on the 125 scene. What a revelation he was.

I don't know, somehow bikes are different. Dangerous yes, but a 125 just doesn't go as fast as an F2 car. Maybe it's just me, I remember watching when poor Henry died on live TV, it sent shivers down my spine. It was obvious the poor kid was dead, and he was just 17.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just being over sensitive to a changing world. It just doesn't feel right to me.....it's just an opinion.

The Surtees accident was just that, an accident, but I get your point. These are just kids. I'm only a few years older than these drivers, and understand that they are young, they have more than a silly sport to look forward to in life, but like Bella pointed out, these many of these kids are beyond their years. They probably make us here look like children in terms of maturity in certain situations. To succeed they have to learn the be more like adults than kids, and many have. Which is why I can deal with these kids racing at a young age. An 18 year old in today's racing is where a 24-25 year old was 20 years ago in terms of where they are mentally as a race driver. Many have raced at a professional level in motorsport since they were 10-11 years old, so moving up classes is not a big issue.

[Flavio Galtieri]

One other thing that just occurred to me, and this is specific to the UK, but anyone having intensive contact with a child is required by law to have an enhanced CRB check by their employer. Intensive is deemed as any contact of three days or more and also applies to volunteers. I'm sure Dr. Palmer and the MSA know that though.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

One other thing that just occurred to me, and this is specific to the UK, but anyone having intensive contact with a child is required by law to have an enhanced CRB check by their employer. Intensive is deemed as any contact of three days or more and also applies to volunteers. I'm sure Dr. Palmer and the MSA know that though.

Unless it's Bertrand Gachot, I don't that that's a big problem.

Plus, this is done, or probably done, by all kart sanctions in the UK already.

[formula_fan]

Flavio, from the neutral point of view it looks as though you are clutching at straws trying to slate F2. Yes the kid is very young to be driving these cars, but he certainly hasn't disgraced himself though as he was in the midfield in both test sessions today I believe. I'm not sure you can say he is being 'exploited for profit' because I'm sure he and his management are the ones pushing for him to be driving in the series.

With regards to the Surtees crash, that was not at all age related, anyone in his position would have had the same unfortunate fate I'm afraid. I think Surtees was also 18 at the time. Kevin Ceccon at 17 won the Auto GP championship as well as doing a more than competent job in GP2 when he stepped in and as mentioned Sirotkin looks pretty talented this year at 16 as well. I think age is not as big an issue as overall competence and I think Tuscher seems competent enough to drive the car. I agree with Bella though in that if he demonstrates he is a liability then maybe action should be taken.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by formula_fan

With regards to the Surtees crash, that was not at all age related, anyone in his position would have had the same unfortunate fate I'm afraid. I think Surtees was also 18 at the time.

I think it was less about the age of Henry but more to say, at 15, if Tuscher is killed in a motor race (broadcast live around the world) it will have massive repercussions not just for F2 but motorsport on an international scale.

Imagine the up roar in some of the less scrupulous daily newspapers for example...

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

I think it was less about the age of Henry but more to say, at 15, if Tuscher is killed in a motor race (broadcast live around the world) it will have massive repercussions not just for F2 but motorsport on an international scale.

Imagine the up roar in some of the less scrupulous daily newspapers for example...

But Dan Wheldon was nearly twice the age of Surtees, and it seemed as if racing could have been banned by the response in the press here in the US.

F2 is broadcast world wide? It's broadcast live? I'll be dayum, we barely get any national series to be shown in delay.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by HaydenFan

But Dan Wheldon was nearly twice the age of Surtees, and it seemed as if racing could have been banned by the response in the press here in the US.

F2 is broadcast world wide? It's broadcast live? I'll be dayum, we barely get any national series to be shown in delay.

Indeed. I think the public sentiment would be tenfold compared to Wheldon if a child was killed.

Yes, I believe (other than the Silverstone opener this weekend) the series is broadcast live on Motors TV in Europe and around the world on a live stream, hosted on the F2 website.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by formula_fan

Flavio, from the neutral point of view it looks as though you are clutching at straws trying to slate F2. Yes the kid is very young to be driving these cars, but he certainly hasn't disgraced himself though as he was in the midfield in both test sessions today I believe.

I think if you check my posts on other threads you'll find I am anything but anti F2. I think it's a great idea and I hope it continues. I watch every race.

I am just against the exploitation of children, particularly in the area of professional sport. And at 15 he is a child.

Where would you draw the line? 14? 13? What if an overdeveloped 12 year old with wealthy parents and a karting pedigree turns up and wants a go?

Let's see how he gets on, good luck to him I hope he does better than the 3rd from slowest, over 2 seconds off the pace he was yesterday. If he is not a contender, not a prodigy, then there is no excuse for him being allowed to take part.

[JackN]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Let's see how he gets on, good luck to him I hope he does better than the 3rd from slowest, over 2 seconds off the pace he was yesterday. If he is not a contender, not a prodigy, then there is no excuse for him being allowed to take part.

He is on pole.

http://www.formulatwo.com/news/silverstone-q1.aspx

[EastonNeston]

would it too cynical to suggest that an extra few pounds of boost make all the difference?

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by JackN

He is on pole.

http://www.formulatwo.com/news/silverstone-q1.aspx

Well that proves he's quick then.....

It does nothing to alter my views though, and I notice the F2 website refers to him as a "teenager" rather than stating his age, whereas Zanella is refered to as a very precise "22 year old"..... No doubt a cautious report lest a member of Northamptonshire's child welfare department is a race fan

Seriously, let's hope he has a safe and successful race and a safe season. I am an admirer of F2 and wouldn't want to see it damaged in any way.

Oh and still nobody has answered my question. Where would you set the bar? 15? 14? 13?.....when is a child not a child? Or maybe that doesn't matter so lond as he or she is quick? That's what I want to know.

[Deemun]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

would it too cynical to suggest that an extra few pounds of boost make all the difference?

Easton! I am surprised at you!! What could you possibly be inferring by a remark like that?

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Oh and still nobody has answered my question. Where would you set the bar? 15? 14? 13?.....when is a child not a child? Or maybe that doesn't matter so lond as he or she is quick? That's what I want to know.

I'd draw the line at 16. I know you're still not an adult at that age, but you are able to join the British army then, and with the obvious risks associated with that profession I think it'd be churlish to stop someone of 17 racing cars of this sort.

[bella]

it's the uk age of consent too obviously, not that it's particularly dangerous at that age

i'd say 16 too. that's in line with the school leaving age, so there's no shenanigans with binning off an education to play with something that ultimately may well not pay off.

obviously there's an inconsistency with the ridiculously powerful karts, but i guess that's a different arguement.

[dank]

Great race earlier. Was incredibly close at times towards the sharp end of he grid, and Bacheta's move on Zanella on the penultimate lap showed great race management.

[peebee2]

The grid size shows the true state of how international motorpsort community views Formula not-2.

A ropy 17 cars despite giveaway one-off offers.

Only 5 drivers (Bacheta, Zanella, Fontana, Mackenzie and Marinescu) have any business racing at a level described as above F3. And three of those have made excuses for not winning on 2010/2011 in different series.

When it started the driver line-up as thought weak but each year has plumbed new depths. Now 2009 looks stunning compared to 2012!

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The grid size shows the true state of how international motorpsort community views Formula not-2.

A ropy 17 cars despite giveaway one-off offers.

Only 5 drivers (Bacheta, Zanella, Fontana, Mackenzie and Marinescu) have any business racing at a level described as above F3. And three of those have made excuses for not winning on 2010/2011 in different series.

When it started the driver line-up as thought weak but each year has plumbed new depths. Now 2009 looks stunning compared to 2012!

But this is a problem with all series now. It has been said over and over again (it will continue to be said until the current way of operating collapses) but money, not talent, buys drives.

F2 should be applauded for keeping costs down (albeit through centralisation rather than technological simplification etc) but some of the best racing drivers out there don't 'even' have £250,000 spare.

Until costs for all motorsport are drastically reduced (as I have said on another thread, entry fees have risen at 400% on top of inflation, thus the circuits are charging much more for circuit hire) this will continue to be a problem. The ultimate end point in a capitalist economy.

Basically, what I am saying is, don't knock F2 for under-performing grids. If you closely analysed a lot of series, there would be many, many cracks...

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

But this is a problem with all series now.

No it isn't.

It isn't a problem in the FR Eurocup. 43 cars?

It isn't a problem in the European F3 Open. 27 cars?

It isn't a problem in the ATS Formel 3. 21 cars?

It isn't a problem in FR3.5. More drivers than seats.

It isn't a problem in FR BARC. 25 cars?

It isn't a problem in Star Mazda. 25 cars?

It isn't a problem in ADAC F Masters. 20+ cars?

To name just a few series that have concentrated on offering value for money, not just low budget/low quality racing.

[EastonNeston]

Another sport I'm involved in, cricket, is a lot tighter on the participation of under 18's in 'adult' cricket, with a minimum age for playing in Adult games of 13, unless the child is very gifted and a member of the counties development squad when the child can play at 12. The ECB make it mandatory that anyone involved in coaching the game or umpiring has to pass an ' enhanced crb' check every 3 years. Each club has to follow various ecb guidelines, and for a club to be involved in an ecb recognised 'premier league' a whole set of criteria must be satisfied, including child protection policies, youth development policies and facilities etc.

It seems the racing industry has some way to go to meet the child protection standards in some other sports.

[bella]

eugghhh i kind of agree with barnettracing cause you know.. there's a place for the kind of offering that f2 has. but at the same time...

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

To name just a few series that have concentrated on offering value for money, not just low budget/low quality racing.

that. the fr eurocup in particular just trumps every argument that says there's no money around, it's all unsustainable, etc. fr3.5 - obviously superb. f3 open - brilliant formula in a cost-appropriate package with good tv coverage and some really excellent circuits. the others are the best offering on a national level.

but then f2 has some great prizes and a great price. obviously you make a lot of compromises compared to other series by choosing that, but if it's your last roll of the dice financially or the maximum you can afford then it's worth it i guess.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Another sport I'm involved in, cricket, is a lot tighter on the participation of under 18's in 'adult' cricket, with a minimum age for playing in Adult games of 13, unless the child is very gifted and a member of the counties development squad when the child can play at 12. The ECB make it mandatory that anyone involved in coaching the game or umpiring has to pass an ' enhanced crb' check every 3 years. Each club has to follow various ecb guidelines, and for a club to be involved in an ecb recognised 'premier league' a whole set of criteria must be satisfied, including child protection policies, youth development policies and facilities etc.

It seems the racing industry has some way to go to meet the child protection standards in some other sports.

Exactly, there are even lighter balls used in cricket for the younger ages. Just imagine if the same happened in rugby. A 15 year old in a male scrum...

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

No it isn't.

It isn't a problem in the FR Eurocup. 43 cars?

It isn't a problem in the European F3 Open. 27 cars?

It isn't a problem in the ATS Formel 3. 21 cars?

It isn't a problem in FR3.5. More drivers than seats.

It isn't a problem in FR BARC. 25 cars?

It isn't a problem in Star Mazda. 25 cars?

It isn't a problem in ADAC F Masters. 20+ cars?

To name just a few series that have concentrated on offering value for money, not just low budget/low quality racing.

Okay, yes, I made a massive generalisation with that particular comment. And the series that you have listed do offer good value for money in comparison to say British F3, FRenault UK (when it existed). But it is still expensive.

You will be best placed to answer this John. How much does a new Dallara F312 cost, ready to run? Because the equivalent cost of a brand new F3 car in the early 1970s was approximately £50,000, ready to roll. Now, I know a lot more has gone into the design of the Dallara (windtunnels, design teams, CAD/CAM, composite materials) but car costs have made a lot of series prohibitive for smaller teams and 'amateurs' - who used to make up a considerable backbone of many series. Yes, I know times have changed etc...

Interestingly, things like tyres have stayed largely similar in price. Also, although petrol has risen above inflation, because fuel consumption has also improved, getting to the circuits doesn't cost much more (if any) than it used to. As I have said (and sorry for repeating), it is the circuit hire and the administrative fees that have risen 100's of percent above inflation. That, and the fact that teams (whether rightly or wrongly) employ more people; so that's more people to pay, feed, sleep etc.

[EastonNeston]

Actually Owen Farrell was playing for Saracens 2nd team at 15.

Also it is not unusual for 15 or 16 year olds to be playing county 2nd xi cricket at that age.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

You will be best placed to answer this John. How much does a new Dallara F312 cost, ready to run?

£80k rolling chassis with gearbox. Electronics and engine (lease or own) extra.

It will be an 'A class' car for four years, then a 'B class' car for another four which is wildly different to the 1980s etc.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

£80k rolling chassis with gearbox. Electronics and engine (lease or own) extra.

It will be an 'A class' car for four years, then a 'B class' car for another four which is wildly different to the 1980s etc.

What do the engine leases/electronics cost, if I may ask? And what is included in the cost of the lease (all rebuilds etc?).