[LM24] Nissan return to Le Mans (G56)

[JoestForEver]

No intention of bashing Nissan here, but if they disagree with the rules, they are free to choose any other alternatives. VW is by no means in favor of F1 and Indy rules, so they simply never care about them instead of yelling everyday 'We will take part in as long as they get the rules right. We'll not conform.'
With all respect, it's just a bit off topic to bring diesel into discussion, which was largely a fashion promoted by FIA in everything except single seaters.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

With diesel it was different: only one manufacturer was involved so ACO was kind of forced to do that. That's no longer the case. Besides, diesel was allowed three years before R10 debuted, but obviously the idea did not drop from the sky.

And Nissan is showcasing the type of tech they want to try in 2014 with the Zeod. They can meet the energy requirements with their solution. Its just a different solution. So whats the difference from it being allowed and diesel allowed? You cant say.

Might actually help if there were some specifics. Since they don't tell any specifics about the concept, it might as well as be complete vaporware. Not even whether it is about the powertrain or shape:

"We have a concept" / "But we have to have a solution different to Toyota, Porsche and Audi" / "We want something to race, but we want to stand out."

Ah, the ambiguity.

Nor should they. The ACO/FIA know what their intention is. Just because they're being a little hush about it publicly means nothing but they don't want the public knowing! Theres something to hide for a reason, not because its vaporware.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by deggis

"We have a concept" / "But we have to have a solution different to Toyota, Porsche and Audi" / "We want something to race, but we want to stand out."

Ah, the ambiguity.

Ah, the selective quoting...

Here is the full sentence:

"We have a concept that would conform to those regulations, but now we have to check if it conforms to someone else’s view. We have to be allowed to be the bad boys of the industry, to interpret the regulations. The ACO [the governing body of the Le Mans 24hrs] has been very collaborative, but a decision has not been made yet."

It is so clear and simple, to me at least. They have a car, which according to their interpretation of the regulations is legal to race as an LMP1. Now they have to wait for ACO to review the project and let them know if the interpretation is correct and the car is legal to enter and race with the rest. The way I am reading this, ACO is in the process of doing so, but a decision has not been made yet. Every team who wishes to enter has to go through the same procedure.

Is there any other way to interpret the entire three sentences?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

And Nissan is showcasing the type of tech they want to try in 2014 with the Zeod. They can meet the energy requirements with their solution. Its just a different solution. So whats the difference from it being allowed and diesel allowed? You cant say.

If you're asking what's the difference it being allowed now and diesel being allowed in 2004, I already answered.

Nor should they. The ACO/FIA know what their intention is. Just because they're being a little hush about it publicly means nothing but they don't want the public knowing! Theres something to hide for a reason, not because its vaporware.

Yet they are so open about the ZEOD dev and progress... Besides, as soon as ACO/FIA knows, the other competitors have to more or less hear about the main concepts too. Palmer might have even directly referred to this with "someone else's view".

[deggis]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Ah, the selective quoting...

The full paragraph you just quoted was quoted previously in this thread too not to mention that everyone reading this thread should have read that whole article anyway, I just pointed out the especially vague and contradictory parts.

Every team who wishes to enter has to go through the same procedure.

Probably not those who build by default a rules-conforming car.

Is there any other way to interpret the entire three sentences?

Yes, such as that they have a concept but they know it doesn't conform.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

If you're asking what's the difference it being allowed now and diesel being allowed in 2004, I already answered.


Yet they are so open about the ZEOD dev and progress... Besides, as soon as ACO/FIA knows, the other competitors have to more or less hear about the main concepts too. Palmer might have even directly referred to this with "someone else's view".

You cant answer it. The differences are minimal. Technologies written in the rules for manufacturers. Basically the same thing goin on here. You dont hear the full details because they dont want you to. Why would you expect them? Then on top of it, they have yet to confirm a yes or no answer. Seems like a non-issue and people just looking to complain because Nissan doesnt want to be a part of the norm.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

You cant answer it. The differences are minimal. Technologies written in the rules for manufacturers. Basically the same thing goin on here.

I answered: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=825

Difference is in the circumstances:

2004: anger the only manufacturer involved
now: please one and anger three manufacturers

Actually, Case: Diesel could be used an example from a sporting point of view why a similar thing should be never done again.

You dont hear the full details because they dont want you to. Why would you expect them? Then on top of it, they have yet to confirm a yes or no answer. Seems like a non-issue and people just looking to complain because Nissan doesnt want to be a part of the norm.

If ZEOD presents what they want from the regs, explain why are they so open about the ZEOD but can't even say whether this supposed concept's problematic part regulation-wise is in the powertrain or in the shape or in both. "It's different" isn't saying anything at all.

"I am building a space rocket, it's different to all other space rockets but I'm not going to tell a single thing about it."

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by deggis

"I am building a space rocket, it's different to all other space rockets but I'm not going to tell a single thing about it."

I find your logic very interesting.... so you are saying that in the modern world of competing to death for market share, they should just let everyone know about the innovative solution they found, with which they could be actually beating everyone in 2015?

Basically Nissan should be releasing something along the lines of:

"Hey, we have developed a concept where we can build an LMP1 car, meeting all the regulations, meanwhile having only half the drag in comparison to an ordinary LMP1 car! The secret is actually mounting 72 dive planes in a specific pattern and funny enough, to our surprise, it works great! Now, we are checking out with the ACO whether it is ok to use 72 dive planes, because there is nothing against it in the rule book, but we know form experience when others see this, they will complain, especially if our car leaves them in the dust - so, we want to check whether everyone is ok with us using 72 dive planes. If everyone is ok, we are going to race in 2015! But meanwhile, please everyone, this was our idea, so it will be unfair now that we told you, for you to go out and copy that for 2014, so by the time we arrive in 2015, we will have no advantage at all!"

.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by deltawing

I find your logic very interesting.... so you are saying that in the modern world of competing to death for market share, they should just let everyone know about the innovative solution they found, with which they could be actually beating everyone in 2015?

Read the preceding paragraph again.

Basically Nissan should be releasing something along the lines of:

"Hey, we have developed a concept where we can build an LMP1 car, meeting all the regulations, meanwhile having only half the drag in comparison to an ordinary LMP1 car! The secret is actually mounting 72 dive planes in a specific pattern and funny enough, to our surprise, it works great! Now, we are checking out with the ACO whether it is ok to use 72 dive planes, because there is nothing against it in the rule book, but we know form experience when others see this, they will complain, especially if our car leaves them in the dust - so, we want to check whether everyone is ok with us using 72 dive planes. If everyone is ok, we are going to race in 2015! But meanwhile, please everyone, this was our idea, so it will be unfair now that we told you, for you to go out and copy that for 2014, so by the time we arrive in 2015, we will have no advantage at all!"

.

At least it would sound a bit less like vaporware.

And these huge revelations will threaten the whole existence of the car company:

- whether the shape is similar to ZEOD
- whether the powertrain is similar to ZEOD
- whether it has anything to do with ZEOD
etc.

[deltawing]

This conversation is going in circles now. You chose to see things the way you want, so there is nothing I can say to that. Hopefully they will pull out something really interesting in the near future and then it will all make sense...

[TF110]

I agree, theres nothing to see here. Just some people's different takes on what Nissan wants. Some think they have no intention to compete and are lobbying for no reason but publicity. Thats just silly. The fact they have a solution they want clarification on should blow that theory away. Audi coming in with diesel is no different no matter the number of makes compared to now and then. The rules written for that technology are probably more drastic than what Nissan is asking. They have a car that will run to the rules by their own admission. The diesel tech was written specifically for that fuel. Thats why we need to know tge specifics before saying things like this is all a stunt for hits on their product.

[Rodger Davies]

ZEOD doesn't need to be competitive. A P1 compliant car would need to be. Can understand them being secretive. Heck, we just found out what engine the Porsche has after 12 months of speculating...

[Gingers4Justice]

I think it odd that people aren't taking Nissan seriously with this project. The news that Nissan is interested in LMP1 in itself just won't make a big enough splash to be worth it. Not enough people care.

What I'm not comfortable with is the fact this LMP1 car could in some way be a gimmick. Racing is not about winning. That phrase really doesn't sit well with me, especially with Le Mans.

When you look at the early years of the race in the pre-war era, major manufacturers and exceedingly wealthy privateers came up with some very whacky ideas. People thought outside of the box because the box wasn't very old. But the crucial thing was that these manufacturers brought these ideas to Le Mans because they truly believed their idea was better than everyone else's and they wanted to beat the other ideas at Le Mans.

I want the big manufacturers as much as the next man, but at the same time, I don't want Le Mans to be PR playground of the OEMs. I want Nissan to be saying "we really think this idea is going to change everything, and it's better than the way everyone else does it, and we're going to win the Le Mans 24 Hours to prove it". It seems to be Nissan are just wanting to be perceived as forward-thinking and innovative.

The Deltawing was no issue with me. I entirely approve the G56 idea. I just don't want that sort of stuff to encroach into the LMP1 category. The Deltwaing got people thinking and talking, but the end of the day, it was a bit of an easy ride for Nissan. It wasn't really racing. There was little to no pressure for the Deltawing to perform. I want a car Nissan thinks can win the race.

Le Mans is a race, and that's how I want it to remain. I'm very much cynic to be won over by Nissan.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What I'm not comfortable with is the fact this LMP1 car could in some way be a gimmick. Racing is not about winning. That phrase really doesn't sit well with me, especially with Le Mans.

I want the big manufacturers as much as the next man, but at the same time, I don't want Le Mans to be PR playground of the OEMs.

To be fair, he never said that. He said "Racing is about trialing technology". It sounds like Nissan have come up with something drastic and they will use that in their advertising, etc. But at the end of the day, Le Mans is a race and the manufacturer that gains the most attention is the winner. At the end of the day, everyone involved in a Nissan LMP1 project will have one goal, win. It is highly unlikely that Nissan would spend millions to build a car and form a team to only finish 3rd or 4th at Le Mans.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Salamus

To be fair, he never said that. He said "Racing is about trialing technology". It sounds like Nissan have come up with something drastic and they will use that in their advertising, etc. But at the end of the day, Le Mans is a race and the manufacturer that gains the most attention is the winner. At the end of the day, everyone involved in a Nissan LMP1 project will have one goal, win. It is highly unlikely that Nissan would spend millions to build a car and form a team to only finish 3rd or 4th at Le Mans.

Apologies, that was a pretty serious mis-quote there.

I hope you're right. I probably wouldn't worry about that quote in isolation, but the fact Nissan have taken more than they've given so far makes me quite cautious, that's all.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

When you look at the early years of the race in the pre-war era, major manufacturers and exceedingly wealthy privateers came up with some very whacky ideas. People thought outside of the box because the box wasn't very old. But the crucial thing was that these manufacturers brought these ideas to Le Mans because they truly believed their idea was better than everyone else's and they wanted to beat the other ideas at Le Mans.

It was more there wasn't even a box. Now there is, and some folks here could tell us exactly how high and how wide it is at each end of the car. Another box for tire size. Another box for holes in the fenders. Lots of boxes.

Obviously we want to limit overall width so one car doesn't hog the whole track, but a lot of the boxes could be done away with and replaced with a stricter fuel allocation and let innovative ideas flow.

I think Nissan is proposing a P1 very much like next year's G56 proposal, to fit under the 'anything goes at the ACO's discretion' box. They are probably proposing they have a much stricter fuel allocation to go with their design freedom.

I would welcome such an entry.

[JoestForEver]

Something suddenly came into my mind that the 911 GT3 R hybrid wasn't a classified entry in the VLN events. If Nissan wants promotion only, there's no need to make such a fuss. Now yhe fact that they are pushing this either through lobbying or PR pressure shows that they are serious about the entry.

Or the least possibility is that, with all respect, they just want a shot for champion to boast for years which isn't sensible.

[Salamus]

Palmer has stated that if no agreement is reached with the ACO then they might just go to the Nurburgring 24.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Something suddenly came into my mind that the 911 GT3 R hybrid wasn't a classified entry in the VLN events.

It was, but it was entered in an invitational class ineligible for points.

[JoestForEver]

Yep, so probably a non-eligible for scoring entry is acceptable then? Wasn't there a hydrogen powered entry this year?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Yep, so probably a non-eligible for scoring entry is acceptable then? Wasn't there a hydrogen powered entry this year?

E1-XP classes in the VLN and at the N24 are used for these kinds of vehicles, you have E1-XP Hybrid for hybrids and then E1-XP1 and 2 for non-hybrid cars based on whether the engines are under or over 3000 cc. The 997 GT3R hybrid ran in E1-XP Hybrid, the Schnitzer BMW M3 GT2/GTE cars ran in 2010-2011 in E1-XP2, the hydrogen-powered Aston Martin Rapide this year was also in E1-XP2 AFAIK.

[vincegail]

Aston Martin ran one or two Vantages on hydrogen if I remember correctly.


EDIT: no I didn't! It was one, and it wasn't a Vantage!
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/30...p-nurburgring/

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by miatanut

It was more there wasn't even a box. Now there is, and some folks here could tell us exactly how high and how wide it is at each end of the car. Another box for tire size. Another box for holes in the fenders. Lots of boxes.

Obviously we want to limit overall width so one car doesn't hog the whole track, but a lot of the boxes could be done away with and replaced with a stricter fuel allocation and let innovative ideas flow.

I think Nissan is proposing a P1 very much like next year's G56 proposal, to fit under the 'anything goes at the ACO's discretion' box. They are probably proposing they have a much stricter fuel allocation to go with their design freedom.

I would welcome such an entry.

I'm not against anything weird or wonderful - so long as it's built to win. G56 is for the gimmicks. That's my point.

I'm probably being over-skeptical but little about the noises Nissan are making suggests this P1 car is designed to do anything apart from being different for the sake of being different. That misses the point.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I'm not against anything weird or wonderful - so long as it's built to win. G56 is for the gimmicks. That's my point.

I'm probably being over-skeptical but little about the noises Nissan are making suggests this P1 car is designed to do anything apart from being different for the sake of being different. That misses the point.

I for one wont be taking Nissan seriously if they're not entering a car in LMP1 that can win. Anything else I'll just see as a show.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I'm not against anything weird or wonderful - so long as it's built to win. G56 is for the gimmicks. That's my point.

I'm probably being over-skeptical but little about the noises Nissan are making suggests this P1 car is designed to do anything apart from being different for the sake of being different. That misses the point.

They aren't being different for the sake of being different. They are trying to pursue a partly electric vehicle and get around the lap at a competitive speed using a lot less energy. One can't get around the lap at a competitive speed using a lot less energy without doing something different.

In any case, G56 is not about gimmicks. It's about innovation. Something racing used to have lots of, but has been squeezed out of the sport by rules which were initially intended to force safety, but then became a vehicle for protecting the status quo.