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Old 21 Oct 2011, 19:38 (Ref:2974882)   #176
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Just posted in another thread...

The right to win : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShPc3...eature=related
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Old 21 Oct 2011, 20:25 (Ref:2974907)   #177
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So Prost was hardly slow in junior stuff, and also he was not as heavily backed financially as Senna who got the best rides.

I don't think that's entirely true. Senna's early FF days were far from well-funded...., although he did indeed find seats with the best teams - largely because they knew what a talent they were getting.

As as for no Senna without Prost. Not that Senna perhaps. He would have still been phenomenally successful, IMO, simply because he was so motivated to win. He would probably have won a lot more....
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Old 21 Oct 2011, 22:01 (Ref:2974949)   #178
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I don't think that's entirely true. Senna's early FF days were far from well-funded...., although he did indeed find seats with the best teams - largely because they knew what a talent they were getting.

As as for no Senna without Prost. Not that Senna perhaps. He would have still been phenomenally successful, IMO, simply because he was so motivated to win. He would probably have won a lot more....
Watch the movie I posted Ayse...
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Old 22 Oct 2011, 08:54 (Ref:2975076)   #179
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I actually prefer both of those clips to teh movie! The film Bononi was superb in that it had lots of input from Alain, then, after watching that, watch the little Top Gear clip.

That sums it all up nicely.
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Old 22 Oct 2011, 09:37 (Ref:2975082)   #180
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Got the DVD for my birthday...didn't learn anything I didn't know about him already having followed his career since he was in Formula Ford. So I was a bit dissapointed by the total lack of his junior car racing in FF & F3, and it would have been nice to have seen more of his Kart Racing especially as he considered Terry Fullerton (1973 World Karting Champion, and senior teammate in the Italian factory DAP team) the best teammate he EVER raced against...Or did Senna only say that to pee off others in F1 especially Prost?
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Old 22 Oct 2011, 15:51 (Ref:2975168)   #181
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I have thought about this loads times over the years since his death.

In the move we see a fair bit on his 1984 debut, obviously centring on Monaco. How would Ayrton have faired if he was coming into F1 as a newcomer in the late late 80's, 1990's or if he was in the new crop of 2001, or even the last few years against the Hamilton's or Vettel's of this world?

I pick those periods because they were/are either highly competitive or there were many other highly rated hotshots entering F1 too....

What do people think?
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Old 22 Oct 2011, 19:00 (Ref:2975215)   #182
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Personally I don't think it would have made any difference. Provided he was in a competitive car I firmly believe he would have blown Hamilton and Vettel into the reeds..... (but then I'm biased....)
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Old 22 Oct 2011, 19:53 (Ref:2975227)   #183
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Got the DVD for my birthday...didn't learn anything I didn't know about him already having followed his career since he was in Formula Ford. So I was a bit dissapointed by the total lack of his junior car racing in FF & F3, and it would have been nice to have seen more of his Kart Racing especially as he considered Terry Fullerton (1973 World Karting Champion, and senior teammate in the Italian factory DAP team) the best teammate he EVER raced against...Or did Senna only say that to pee off others in F1 especially Prost?
re lack of FF and F3, I suspect that was a conscious effort against "glazed over eyes" by viewers such as my wife, who wouldnt give a hoot about too many details that distracted from the more accesible "storyline" for a larger audience (just as the "Monaco" bit superseeded the not mentioned Donnington first lap-in my opinion)

your comment about the karting years, probably the same thing, but your idea of considering Fullerton the best teammate he ever raced against-- being a mindgame...interesting, very interesting. Who knows, could have been a bit of both being truthful and screwing with Prost.

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Old 23 Oct 2011, 07:35 (Ref:2975355)   #184
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Yes the movie was definitely aimed at the broader or less informed audience rather than the likes of us. Unfortunate to a degree but there are many docos over the years (especially Brasilian/Portuguese ones ) that delve into his earlier career. There's one that even has footage of Ayrton at home during the '91 off season, racing karts with all his mates & handing out Tag watches to the winners......even the kids got them!

But to put all that in the movie would detract from the story based structure & it was this formula that has grabbed the attention of all that are new to the Ayrton Senna experience. I could see that through their eyes, the movie would be totally mind blowing, almost unbelievable when it came to Suzuka's roll 3 years running. Hollywood couldn't have scripted it better.

I wish there was a memory erasing pill that lasted 24 hours (other than alcohol!) so I could watch the Movie 'for the first time'.......No wonder it's created a new wave of younger Senna fans!

Regarding Terry Fullarton, I believe Ayrton was being completely honest as Terry was the only driver he never totally got the better of.....& to Senna, that would be a huge deal! Add to the fact that the World Karting Championship was the only title he tried for but never achieved.


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Old 24 Oct 2011, 11:29 (Ref:2975966)   #185
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Regarding Terry Fullarton, I believe Ayrton was being completely honest as Terry was the only driver he never totally got the better of.....& to Senna, that would be a huge deal! Add to the fact that the World Karting Championship was the only title he tried for but never achieved.


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To be fair, although they had that snippet in the movie, I have read on a few occasions that Fullerton was the best he ever raced against. And yes, not winning the Kart World Championship was something he never was happy about.
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Old 24 Oct 2011, 17:37 (Ref:2976134)   #186
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Ayrton said that in his book many years ago by Hilton, I am sure that was in there, so hardly new news. I dont think he really got the better of Prost, in equal cars they were fairly similar, Senna was hte best qualifier, Prost often the beter racer and thinker.

Senna was miles better in the rain, Prost was better when tactics came into it.

Fullerton was someone who was more experienced at the time, was a full time karter and a legend of the sport, dont think he ever progressed to cars.
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Old 24 Oct 2011, 18:31 (Ref:2976172)   #187
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Prost often the beter racer and thinker.

I'll give you the better thinker and tactician from time to time, but better racer - not in my understanding of the word, never.
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Old 24 Oct 2011, 19:43 (Ref:2976196)   #188
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Ayrton said that in his book many years ago by Hilton, I am sure that was in there, so hardly new news. I dont think he really got the better of Prost, in equal cars they were fairly similar, Senna was hte best qualifier, Prost often the beter racer and thinker.

Senna was miles better in the rain, Prost was better when tactics came into it.

Fullerton was someone who was more experienced at the time, was a full time karter and a legend of the sport, dont think he ever progressed to cars.
If you look on Speedcafe, they have a "where are they now" article on Fullerton they did recently.
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Old 24 Oct 2011, 22:22 (Ref:2976282)   #189
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Personally I don't think it would have made any difference. Provided he was in a competitive car I firmly believe he would have blown Hamilton and Vettel into the weeds..... (but then I'm biased....)
In that case, so am I!

Getting back to the film, I've seen the extended Blu-Ray version and think it is better for the likes of us, if you like, but the film was right for a wider audience. The longer version has more interviews with the likes of Ron Dennis, Alain Prost (too much) Richard Williams who did the narration and a couple of journalists, one American and one Brazilian.

A couple of things struck me. The first was when Ayrton signed for Williams he didn't know that the FIA was about to ban all the technical wizardry that made the car so dominant in '92 and '93.

Secondly, at the time of Imola he was trying not just to improve the car; he was still trying to form a decent relationship with the team. There was no sign that they were close. At Aida, when Senna first became convinced that Schumacher's Benetton (and his alone) had traction control, he asked the team to protest, but they refused.
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Old 24 Oct 2011, 22:45 (Ref:2976301)   #190
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I guess my opinion of racer is slightly different from yours Ayes.

I call a racer someone you as a fair man can race against.

I dont call Senna fair, he was marginally dirty and ushered in a whole new era of forceful contact style driving.

His will to win was able to overpower his common sense and survival instinct in a way that a Clark, Hill, Fangio, Moss, Stewart, never could have done.

And for that Alain will always be more of a man on the racetracks, not at all off the track as Ayrton was the consumate pro and gentleman. Just not on the track.
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Old 25 Oct 2011, 09:22 (Ref:2976422)   #191
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I guess my opinion of racer is slightly different from yours Ayes.

I call a racer someone you as a fair man can race against.

I dont call Senna fair, he was marginally dirty and ushered in a whole new era of forceful contact style driving.

His will to win was able to overpower his common sense and survival instinct in a way that a Clark, Hill, Fangio, Moss, Stewart, never could have done.

And for that Alain will always be more of a man on the racetracks, not at all off the track as Ayrton was the consumate pro and gentleman. Just not on the track.
I respect your view chunder, but Senna's era of cars were infinitely safer than the other greats you mention. They were likely to be killed by making a mistake, the Nurburgring for example was lined by trees in their era, by the 70's they started fixing guardrails all round.
Regarding Alain being a fair man and Senna being marginally dirty, wasn't it 1989 when Prost turned in on Senna at the Suzuka chicane? His reasoning being that he'd given way too often so as to avoid an accident at the first corner.
People recall Suzuka 1990, but it was payback
Alain played the media brilliantly and made Senna seem slightly unhinged with comments about his faith, something that was mentioned greatly throughout the film, culminating with the quote from his sister re: greatest gift, something I have never heard previously.

Don't misunderstand my points, I still feel that Senna's driving at Suzuka in 1990 was the most disgusting piece of driving I've ever seen, but it shows just how angry he became at the politics within the sport at that the time.
He was still angry at the whole organisation, at the 1991 Japanese GP when he famously swore during an interview over the PA system, because Balestre had been replaced by Mosley.
Today, I like Hamilton, Alonso, in fact any driver who shows emotions. Seeing Vettel doing the screw loose signal at Webber last year was brilliant because it shows emotion.
I have suffered every emotion watching F1, indescribable sadness to tearful joy, but never am i indifferent.
Even something like the Spanish GP this year, seeing Alonso take the lead had me shouting and yet by the end of the race I was gutted by how far off the pace Ferrari were.
I want to see these guys share that feeling, who can forget Senna's 1st win, he was climbing out of the car on the warm down lap... or when he won the Japanese GP and the WDC, you know from his body language that he was crying.
With Prost, it always felt like he was happy with a job well done.

Last point, Senna is seen as a "consumate pro and gentleman". At the time, this wasn't very apparent, but 17 years of new books and literature have re-shaped peoples memories of him.
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Old 25 Oct 2011, 23:18 (Ref:2976839)   #192
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Last point, Senna is seen as a "consumate pro and gentleman". At the time, this wasn't very apparent, but 17 years of new books and literature have re-shaped peoples memories of him.
'At the time', it was very apparent to me (personally) as I was fortunate enough to meet Ayrton, twice in 1990.

First at the German GP, it was late Saturday afternoon & Senna was leaving the F1 paddock with father Milton in a red Honda Prelude. The area was clear as the F3000 teams had packed up & gone. I stood there & gestured as if to wave down a taxi.........& he stopped! I had my copy of "Hard Edge of Genius" in hand, which he happily signed. Then I gave him a hand painted T-shirt I'd made depicting his #27 McLaren at Eau Rouge. The shirt was folded but he proceeded to unfold it & lay it over the steering wheel to take a proper look. I remember his expression to this day, he was genuinely thankful.
By this stage a crowd had formed behind me & Ayrton said "I have to go now".

Four months later here in Adelaide I met him again, this time in the foyer of the Hilton. It was Saturday night & was packed with people. Ayrton was chatting with his dinner group when I approached. At first he (obviously) thought I was just an autograph hunter, however I said "No, I don't want your autograph! You may remember me from Hockenheim, I was the one who gave you the T-shirt!"
With this, he turned to me & said "Oh yes, I remember, how are you?" We then chatted for a few moments & I finished by congratulating him on his pole position that day, we shook hands & he went off to dinner.

Now, I was just a young, flea bitten race fan with no connections or clout. Yet Ayrton, on both occassions, was a "consumate pro and gentleman". He didn't need to stop at Hockenheim & he could've turned his back at the Hilton..........& many other drivers would have.

They say 'you should never meet your heroes' as it will always leave you disappointed.

To that I say it depends on who your hero is!

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Old 26 Oct 2011, 06:05 (Ref:2976894)   #193
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neat stories there Oran.

obviously special memories for you.

again, this and the other thread going on make for some very interesting reading.
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Old 26 Oct 2011, 20:28 (Ref:2977369)   #194
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I guess my opinion of racer is slightly different from yours Ayes.

I call a racer someone you as a fair man can race against.

I dont call Senna fair, he was marginally dirty and ushered in a whole new era of forceful contact style driving.

His will to win was able to overpower his common sense and survival instinct in a way that a Clark, Hill, Fangio, Moss, Stewart, never could have done.

And for that Alain will always be more of a man on the racetracks, not at all off the track as Ayrton was the consumate pro and gentleman. Just not on the track.
It's not an area I propose to debate, not because I don't want to go there, but it's been aired so many times in the past. To me, a racer is a driver who wants to be fastest on every lap - every lap of testing, qualifying and in the race. A driver who wants to win every race and for whom settling for second is rarely, if ever an option. It was that in Senna which attracted me to him from the outset. The will to win. Give me a man who has the spirit and desire to fight to be the best rather than accept the points for third place. I'll always support the man who will always fight for the next place up as oppose to the man who will settle for what he's got...

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Old 26 Oct 2011, 21:04 (Ref:2977385)   #195
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neat stories there Oran.

obviously special memories for you.

again, this and the other thread going on make for some very interesting reading.
Thanks djb, it's like it all happened only last week.

The movie has created a groundswell of new Senna admirers so I feel it's the duty of the 'older' set to drive the message home!

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Old 26 Oct 2011, 21:41 (Ref:2977400)   #196
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Thanks djb, it's like it all happened only last week.

The movie has created a groundswell of new Senna admirers so I feel it's the duty of the 'older' set to drive the message home!

.
Also, if you want to read stories of Ayrton from a figure more connected to the sport, I highly recommend grabbing a copy of Professor Sid Watkins' book "Life at the Limit". As seen in the movie, Sid had a closer bond with Ayrton than any other driver at the time & he devotes entire chapters to this friendship.
I won't spoil it but it shows once again how Senna, the best in the business, was also humble & generous.

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Old 27 Oct 2011, 09:44 (Ref:2977563)   #197
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'At the time', it was very apparent to me (personally) as I was fortunate enough to meet Ayrton, twice in 1990.




.
It was to me Oran, I'd met him at Silverstone tyre tests, so only brief.
But I was referring to the wider public. I have been attending every British GP meeting and tyre tests since 1982. In the UK, Senna didn't have the biggest following. Racing the national hero Mansell, vetoing Warwick from Lotus, taking on a politically savvy adversary at Mclaren, being intensely passionate about his work, all these conspired against him during his racing life.
In 1992, and 1993, some of the fans banners were shameful, language and sentiment...
Yet, weeks after his death, everyone at Silverstone was wearing Senna "S" t-shirts, wearing Nacional caps, flying Brazilian flags. I found their discovery of Senna quite sickening really.
So much of what we see colours our views, I wasn't surprised to hear so many wonderful stories of Senna, he was truly humble and I think people didn't see that as he was this international superstar.
But the clues were there.

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Agreed, they were close but in so many other ways they were poles apart.

One angle I find intriguing is the way Senna & Prost left each of their respective teams during their careers.

With Prost, he left no doubt about his acrimony toward Renault in '83 & McLaren in '89. Ferrari didn't even give him the pleasure in '91 & his final races for each didn't exactly endeer him either.
The only happy ending was with Williams in '93 although one can suggest that it was due to his 'master plan' working exactly as he planned.

With Senna however, it can be said that each team would much rather he stayed. Even in '84 after the mid year bust up (over Lotus), Toleman were revelling in Senna's results, complete with a farewell podium.
Again with Lotus, even though he was heading for greener pastures, Senna fought for every place till year's end, finishing with a (later DSQ) 2nd in Adelaide.
Ayrton's final race for McLaren is played out majestically on the superb "Season with McLaren" doco. To hear the team's comments (especially Jo Ramirez) on how it will be without him certainly proved Senna as a team player........with the icing on the cake being one of his best victories as a farewell gift.


.
What a great point. It's true, the teams hated losing Senna.
Toleman punished Senna by withdrawing him from Monza 1984 becaue he signed for Lotus.
I read the book about Senna's Lotus years. In Brazil 86, he told Warr, the boss, that he wanted Honda engines, otherwise he would look elsewhere.
Because of what he brought to the teams, Warr went out and got Honda engines.
At Mclaren, in 1991, he got in the car, new V12 Honda engine and he said before the season began, that the team and engine hadn't moved forward enough. There was no anger, they just knew he was pushing for more. He was proven right also.

Prost, I heard, was sacked by Renault, not only because of his criticism of the team, but because he'd been having an affair with Dudot's wife, him being the Renault boss.
He complained about Honda engines and equality, and he gave the Mclaren trophy to Ferrari fans off the podium, not team personel. It's written in Mclaren's contracts, that drivers have to give over their winning trophy to the team. Prost angered Ron Dennis over this. It was spiteful.
I wouldn't say Prost's final races with Williams were particularly happy. He was being forced to leave because Williams had signed Senna earlier that season.
Prost's master plan forced Mansell out for 1993, and Renault bosses said at the beginnning of the 1993 season, how great it would be to have a French WDC, hardly supportive of D.Hill.
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Old 27 Oct 2011, 15:21 (Ref:2977750)   #198
fourWheelDrift
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Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever View Post
Also, if you want to read stories of Ayrton from a figure more connected to the sport, I highly recommend grabbing a copy of Professor Sid Watkins' book "Life at the Limit". As seen in the movie, Sid had a closer bond with Ayrton than any other driver at the time & he devotes entire chapters to this friendship.
I won't spoil it but it shows once again how Senna, the best in the business, was also humble & generous.

.
For what it's worth if this post nearly persuaded someone to buy the book I'd suggest you actually do so, it's one of my all time favourite reads alongside Working the Wheel, Life in the Fast Lane and The Right Stuff, ok so the last one isn't motorsport but what the hell.
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Old 27 Oct 2011, 20:14 (Ref:2977908)   #199
strider
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Originally Posted by herowassenna View Post
Prost, I heard, was sacked by Renault, not only because of his criticism of the team, but because he'd been having an affair with Dudot's wife, him being the Renault boss.
This is only slightly off topic. Bruno Senna was quoted in F1 Racing magazine this week as saying that the best piece of advice he'd been given in F1 was: "Don't shag your main sponsor's wife!" It's not quite the same thing, but I wonder if the two are connected? Bruno does race for LRGP.
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Old 27 Oct 2011, 21:45 (Ref:2977939)   #200
Oran Park Forever
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Originally Posted by herowassenna View Post
It was to me Oran, I'd met him at Silverstone tyre tests, so only brief.
But I was referring to the wider public. I have been attending every British GP meeting and tyre tests since 1982. In the UK, Senna didn't have the biggest following. Racing the national hero Mansell, vetoing Warwick from Lotus, taking on a politically savvy adversary at Mclaren, being intensely passionate about his work, all these conspired against him during his racing life.
In 1992, and 1993, some of the fans banners were shameful, language and sentiment...
Yet, weeks after his death, everyone at Silverstone was wearing Senna "S" t-shirts, wearing Nacional caps, flying Brazilian flags. I found their discovery of Senna quite sickening really.
So much of what we see colours our views, I wasn't surprised to hear so many wonderful stories of Senna, he was truly humble and I think people didn't see that as he was this international superstar.
But the clues were there.

I wouldn't say Prost's final races with Williams were particularly happy. He was being forced to leave because Williams had signed Senna earlier that season.
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Firstly, slightly envious of you attending decades of Silverstone testing!

I remember my time at the 1990 British GP & yes you're right, the local Mansell & or Ferrari fans gave Senna a horrid time. With England being the F1 'centre of the universe' & Senna driving only for English teams, it's no wonder Senna would've put up a barrier against the local press, which they then would've played on to their own advantage........especially Roebuck!

Prost will tell us otherwise (as he does in the extended version of 'Senna') about being 'forced out' of Williams at the end of '93.
Fact is he had an option to continue for season '94, however his veto on Mansell & Senna was only valid for '93. Therefore he was perfectly entitled to stay, the only difference being that he would've had to 'race' his team mate..........& history shows that The Professor never really liked doing that!

Ask Nige.......& Rene........& Eddie........& Damon........

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