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Old 23 May 2011, 07:26 (Ref:2884242)   #1
JohnnyFiama
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Ground effect vs modern cars

Given the huge advance in aerodynamics and tyres, how does the current generation of F1 cars compare to the peak of ground effect in 1982? There were stories of driving blacking out the cornering forces were so high in '82. I don't suppose anyone has any figures on downforce generated / cornering forces?

(on a side note, the cars of 82 were some of the most beautiful F1 cars of all time).
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Old 23 May 2011, 08:45 (Ref:2884281)   #2
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I have no figures, but I have recently been wondering just how quick a modern F1 car would be these days the rules were changed to allow ground effect.
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Old 23 May 2011, 10:58 (Ref:2884361)   #3
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Just out of interest, the 1982 Monaco pole lap time of Rene Arnoux was about 9 1/2 seconds slower than Webbers 2010 pole lap. (1.23:281 for RA 1.13:826 for MW). I think that modern day cars with ground effect would be too fast.
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Old 23 May 2011, 11:57 (Ref:2884408)   #4
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I always wondered how a top team like say RBR would do if they got transported back in time to the early 80s, with their current technology. They would have been so far ahead lol.

As for drivers blacking out, the drivers werent really athletes back then, many of them smoked and I seriously doubt that they spent much time in the gym, while todays drivers are without exception in excellent physical shape.
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Old 23 May 2011, 15:24 (Ref:2884525)   #5
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Drivers overalls could double as pressure suits for the high Gs, same as say a fighter pilot?

We're at the point now where you can buy a road car that has both a higher top speed and accelerates faster than an F1 car. Sure they are no match under braking or cornering but still..

I understand the safety concerns but are we saying that F1 cars will never get any faster than they are at the moment? Where will the sport be in 10 or 20 years time? Surely they cant just cap performance at current levels, not indefinitely.
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Old 23 May 2011, 15:41 (Ref:2884542)   #6
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Drivers overalls could double as pressure suits for the high Gs, same as say a fighter pilot?

We're at the point now where you can buy a road car that has both a higher top speed and accelerates faster than an F1 car. Sure they are no match under braking or cornering but still..

I understand the safety concerns but are we saying that F1 cars will never get any faster than they are at the moment? Where will the sport be in 10 or 20 years time? Surely they cant just cap performance at current levels, not indefinitely.
While that's all true going fast in a straight line is not what F1 is about. If you remove the challenge of cornering motorsport can be much faster than F1 (top fuel or funny cars anyone) it is also in my humble opinion much less interesting without corners!

Incidentally a fighter pilot's G suit works because the G is basically all in one direction (from head to feet) I can't see the same approach working in an F1 environment where G forces are constantly changing not only in magnitude but in direction.
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Old 23 May 2011, 17:01 (Ref:2884583)   #7
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Just out of interest, the 1982 Monaco pole lap time of Rene Arnoux was about 9 1/2 seconds slower than Webbers 2010 pole lap. (1.23:281 for RA 1.13:826 for MW). I think that modern day cars with ground effect would be too fast.
Bearing in mind that Rascasse has been re-configured, the swimming pool section too and the chicane has been slowed down from Arnoux's day. I'd also imagine Monaco is probably not the best circuit to compare ground effects with current cars, its normally about mechanical grip.
Yes Webber was on pole there last year, but his aero advantage would have been greater in Barcelona for example.
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Old 23 May 2011, 17:35 (Ref:2884607)   #8
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Drivers overalls could double as pressure suits for the high Gs, same as say a fighter pilot?

We're at the point now where you can buy a road car that has both a higher top speed and accelerates faster than an F1 car. Sure they are no match under braking or cornering but still..

I understand the safety concerns but are we saying that F1 cars will never get any faster than they are at the moment? Where will the sport be in 10 or 20 years time? Surely they cant just cap performance at current levels, not indefinitely.
G-suits don't work around corners.

Yes you can buy a road car that is much faster in a straight line than an F1 car and may also be just as quick to 60 or 100 mph. But you can't use most of its performance on the road. I can also go at 500mph in a Jet aeroplane.

F1 car performance is limited on at least two fronts which include track/spectator/driver safety and a drivers physical ability to withstand G-forces.

Surely we don't want the best driver in the world being the one that can withstand the most G-forces?

To me, F1 cars were just as fast back in the 80's as they are now because they looked more difficult to drive. Today, the cars look easier to drive and don't look to be travelling as quickly. Only the stopwatch tells a different story.

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Old 24 May 2011, 01:10 (Ref:2884867)   #9
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I like this thread carry on!
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Old 24 May 2011, 08:37 (Ref:2885009)   #10
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The point I was trying to make was that if f1 is limited in terms of top speed, acceleration and in cornering Gs, where does that leave room for improvement?

As we see at the moment, cornering is the hardest thing to regulate so that is where the teams are pushing no matter how hard the FIA make it.

If we are already at the "as fast as is safe" limit then what is going to happen in the future? We have seen safety increase 10 fold since the 80s but that only warranted a reduction in power.

We are currently in the situation where any successful innovation is banned.
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Old 24 May 2011, 09:47 (Ref:2885047)   #11
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I've been trying to find out what car has the highest corner G. I'm sure I remember some specialist skid pan cars etc, and there is something called the G-kart, but that pulled less than 2G apparently.

Do F1 cars have the highest G cornering ability?
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Old 24 May 2011, 10:40 (Ref:2885078)   #12
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Originally Posted by luke g28 View Post
Drivers overalls could double as pressure suits for the high Gs, same as say a fighter pilot?

We're at the point now where you can buy a road car that has both a higher top speed and accelerates faster than an F1 car. Sure they are no match under braking or cornering but still..

I understand the safety concerns but are we saying that F1 cars will never get any faster than they are at the moment? Where will the sport be in 10 or 20 years time? Surely they cant just cap performance at current levels, not indefinitely.
Pressure suits do nothing to help at high G's, pressure suits are only used in very high altitude flying planes where the plane does not have its own pressurised cabin and what not.
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Old 24 May 2011, 12:42 (Ref:2885154)   #13
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I would have thought the improvements in tyres in 30 years would be so massive that it would make up for a lot of loss in down force from ground effect (and give grip at low speed).

Also I imagine that the cars were a lot less comfortable and had to run very close to the ground with not a lot of suspension travel to keep the 'ground effect' working.
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Old 24 May 2011, 12:47 (Ref:2885157)   #14
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A g-suit is primarily used to prevent pooling of the blood in the lower part of the body under longitudinal upward forces. They do not help during lateral (side-to-side) movement, which is what an F1 driver normally experiences when cornering. Even during longitudinal use, a g-suit only helps the pilot to cope with the forces for a longer period of time. It does not necessarily increase his normal tolerance to g-forces. Also remember that a fighter plane will corner when banked over, so the g-suit has use in all flight attitudes that a fighter plane might normally have. Jet fighter pilots do not normally experience lateral (side-to-side) forces.

The limiting factor in a modern fighter planes manoeuvring capabilities is not the plane, but the pilot.

Similarly, in an F1 car, if we ramp up the aero and tyre grip. The limiting factor will be the drivers ability to withstand lateral g-forces, and it may be that it's not the drivers that you think are the best drivers that come out on top there!
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Old 24 May 2011, 13:25 (Ref:2885179)   #15
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F1 cannot stay the same speed forever. If it does there will be a new "pinnacle of motorsport"

There is an overlap in this thread and the lemans thread. Where they say that the lemans cars travel further in one race than f1 does in a season have a 20mph higher average speed and use 42% less fuel. Doesn't really make f1 the pinnacle in my eyes.

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Old 24 May 2011, 13:31 (Ref:2885185)   #16
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If you are saying that the fastest accelerating cars with the highest top speeds are the 'pinnacle of motor sport', then why aren't you watching dragster racing?

You will note that they can only do those sorts of speeds in a straight line.
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Old 24 May 2011, 15:33 (Ref:2885248)   #17
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No im questioning why an endurance motorsport around a full circuit should have a higher average speed than the best circuit cars around a much shorter distance?

While im here though, there is speculation that the RBR qualifying advantage is because they can deploy kers much earlier through the corners. In the same way having more power available doesnt turn the series into drag racing.

Im not sure at what point you decided that I was all about top speed. I was stating that all aspects of the cars performance are controlled and my disappointment that having the same straight line performance as a road car would be too much for the worlds best drivers and that they couldn't handle it.

Yes f1 is about braking and cornering, but I would like to see these deregulated too! As an overall package though I think that F1 cars should be quicker around a circuit than any other race series to be able to claim "pinnacle" status.

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Old 24 May 2011, 15:49 (Ref:2885264)   #18
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No im questioning why an endurance motorsport around a full circuit should have a higher average speed than the best circuit cars around a much shorter distance?

While im here though, there is speculation that the RBR qualifying advantage is because they can deploy kers much earlier through the corners. In the same way having more power available doesnt turn the series into drag racing.

Im not sure at what point you decided that I was all about top speed. I was stating that all aspects of the cars performance are controlled and my disappointment that having the same straight line performance as a road car would be too much for the worlds best drivers and that they couldn't handle it.

Yes f1 is about braking and cornering, but I would like to see these deregulated too! As an overall package though I think that F1 cars should be quicker around a circuit than any other race series to be able to claim "pinnacle" status.
Problem is that different vehicles are designed to run on different types of tracks. If you race on a drag strip the dragster will be fastest by far, the Indy car would probably outpace an F1 car on a 2 mile plus oval and on a European style road course the F1 would beat the Indy car and the Dragster simply couldn't do it.

The fastest cars at Le mans (about which I confess I know very little) must be pretty close in performance to F1 and I think the gap has been shrinking over the years but on most tracks F1 runs on I suspect the F1 car would be quicker but at circuits where the premium is on aerodynamic efficiency and which have very long straights (such as Le Mans itself) the F1 cars are probably slower in overall lap time as well as top speed.

It is never as simple as which car is faster but I am quite certain that there is nothing out there that can match an F1 car for top speed, lateral G and change of direction, one of these yes but all three no. Closest thing I know is probably a hill climb car like the Gould GR55 but I don't think you'd find an example that could do 200mph.
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Old 24 May 2011, 17:38 (Ref:2885327)   #19
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Tis all about the Brakes. That is the one area where F1 cars are unmatched and clearly miles ahead. While an LMP won't go as fast around a corner, it also weighs 2/3rds of another F1 car more.

Open Wheel racing and top speed do not belong in the same sentence. Same with Aerodynamic efficiency. Bet you a dollar a customer LMP is more efficient than even the most efficient F1 car.

Speaking of Sportscars and F1, was there not a time when the Porsche Group C cars were faster than F1 cars?

Le Mans is a circuit that had not one, but two chicanes add in because the straight was too long to be "safe", yet the cars still routinely hit 200 MPH in between. It's a fast circuit in every sense of the word. Only thing I could think of for F1 is Monza. LMPs are not faster, it's that their one large race is on a circuit that is faster. A/LMS/Sports Car racing in general is all about Le Mans. It's a fair comment.

Plus most sports car series don't have these gimmicky tires that last 15 laps max. lol

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Old 25 May 2011, 08:03 (Ref:2885597)   #20
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Problem is that different vehicles are designed to run on different types of tracks. If you race on a drag strip the dragster will be fastest by far, the Indy car would probably outpace an F1 car on a 2 mile plus oval and on a European style road course the F1 would beat the Indy car and the Dragster simply couldn't do it.

The fastest cars at Le mans (about which I confess I know very little) must be pretty close in performance to F1 and I think the gap has been shrinking over the years but on most tracks F1 runs on I suspect the F1 car would be quicker but at circuits where the premium is on aerodynamic efficiency and which have very long straights (such as Le Mans itself) the F1 cars are probably slower in overall lap time as well as top speed.

It is never as simple as which car is faster but I am quite certain that there is nothing out there that can match an F1 car for top speed, lateral G and change of direction, one of these yes but all three no. Closest thing I know is probably a hill climb car like the Gould GR55 but I don't think you'd find an example that could do 200mph.
Just wanted to say I thought that was a very good post.
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Old 25 May 2011, 09:35 (Ref:2885622)   #21
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Just wanted to say I thought that was a very good post.
Agreed

I guess Id just like to see power : grip balance changed by increasing power rather than the more popular motion of reducing grip

Lots of corners in the current tracks are taken flat out because there is so much more grip than power
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Old 25 May 2011, 11:01 (Ref:2885666)   #22
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The fastest top speed recorded at Le Mans is 405 kmh. This was in 1988 by Roger Dorchy in a WM Peugeot P88. The record was set on the Hunaudieres straight on the section after the Nissan chicane. " (The chicanes were built in 1990.)
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Old 25 May 2011, 11:22 (Ref:2885673)   #23
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Agreed

I guess Id just like to see power : grip balance changed by increasing power rather than the more popular motion of reducing grip

Lots of corners in the current tracks are taken flat out because there is so much more grip than power
I think you are underestimating the skill of professional drivers. Adding more power would not make it much more likely that they would spin as a result of too much right foot. They are simply way too good for the power to be a factor in them spinning.
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Old 25 May 2011, 11:47 (Ref:2885685)   #24
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If we see power increased with current levels of down force, we will quickly see the FIA putting in regulations to increase lap times to a safe level (groove tyres etc. Do you want grooved tyres?).

If we take lots of down force off with current power levels, we will see another great increase in lap times.

If we then remove power and downforce, we will be back to seventies type lap times!

F1 has definitely been slower, but I would doubt that it would get much faster. In fact, many believe that we left the ultimate F1 cars behind, back in 2004.
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Old 26 May 2011, 12:37 (Ref:2886150)   #25
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I think you are underestimating the skill of professional drivers. Adding more power would not make it much more likely that they would spin as a result of too much right foot. They are simply way too good for the power to be a factor in them spinning.
Quite. Having more power makes no difference. The cars are limited by grip, not power. In fact, in most corners they are not full throttle (and that applies in any race car not just F1), so increasing power just means they don't press so hard on the go pedal.
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