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Old 23 May 2011, 08:31 (Ref:2884268)   #1
40YearFan
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Red Bull's (AUT) Qualifying Advantage Solved?

Hi everybody. Long-time reader, first-time poster

I just read an article discussing why Red Bull lose their qualifying advantage in the race. I wondered if it was actually possible to change the engine mapping (is that the right word?) from the cockpit pre-race.

Also, i'm curious to see who you think will start (or continue) getting pole after the FIA curb the exhaust blowing after Monaco.

The article i'm talking about: http://tinyurl.com/4yhcj7qCheers,
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Old 23 May 2011, 08:35 (Ref:2884272)   #2
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Link fixed...

http://tinyurl.com/4yhcj7q
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Old 23 May 2011, 08:41 (Ref:2884275)   #3
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I think McLaren are the best team on the grid at adjusting to changes in the middle of a season. They are also the best team at developing a car throughout a season. THeir car suits Monaco anyway and they aren't a million miles away from red-bull on race pace as it stands. All the teams will be affected by this but i feel this could be McLarens trump card!

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Old 23 May 2011, 08:55 (Ref:2884288)   #4
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That article explains very well why it is that Red Bull are quicker in qualifying than they are in the race. Something that will be more than handy in Monaco, should they still be allowed to use that particular engine map.
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Old 23 May 2011, 11:29 (Ref:2884381)   #5
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A very interesting article, and I do think it explains well their qualifying advantage.
I'm also now wondering if Vettel was also able to use this for his out lap following his first tyre stop in the race. His two overtakes made him look like he was on another level, but maybe now we know this, then there's possibly another explanation. It may also explain why he was so much slower (or only just about fast enough) later in the race, as he was having to conserve fuel (to make up for the extra he burned in that lap)?
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Old 23 May 2011, 11:36 (Ref:2884385)   #6
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I think that the overtaking was generally down to one driver having less worn tyres or softer tyres than another driver. Button quickly got passed Webber and Alonso. Vettel also quickly got passed those on older or harder tyres.

Christian Horner says that their qualifying form is down to the cars ability to use its tyres well in qualifying whilst still having an acceptable tyre performance in the race. But then again, maybe he would say that!?
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Old 23 May 2011, 14:20 (Ref:2884492)   #7
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Not convinced by that article at all. Basically because I am not convinced that the level of advantage seen by RB can be explained by a slightly better blown diffuser.

The article states they maintain 95-100% of the exhaust gas whilst off throttle. That seems a monstrously high figure, implying that the engine is still running (almost) flat out even when the throttle is released - I cannot see how they get that volume of gas out without some big bangs going on.

The difference between the oppositions 70-80% to RB's 95-100 is also not that great. It may be 15-20%, but that is on a aero device that only supplies some of the downforce on the car - I dont have an exact figures, but lets say 10%. So 20% of 10% is 0.5% overall. Now, that's not available throughout the whole lap - only when off throttle. Say 25% of the lap, so we now have a 0.5% advantage for only 25% of the lap, so overall, 0.125% overall advantage.

The RB shows more than that in qualifying.

Something else is going on.
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Old 23 May 2011, 14:58 (Ref:2884510)   #8
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Not convinced by that article at all. Basically because I am not convinced that the level of advantage seen by RB can be explained by a slightly better blown diffuser.

The article states they maintain 95-100% of the exhaust gas whilst off throttle. That seems a monstrously high figure, implying that the engine is still running (almost) flat out even when the throttle is released - I cannot see how they get that volume of gas out without some big bangs going on.

The difference between the oppositions 70-80% to RB's 95-100 is also not that great. It may be 15-20%, but that is on a aero device that only supplies some of the downforce on the car - I dont have an exact figures, but lets say 10%. So 20% of 10% is 0.5% overall. Now, that's not available throughout the whole lap - only when off throttle. Say 25% of the lap, so we now have a 0.5% advantage for only 25% of the lap, so overall, 0.125% overall advantage.

The RB shows more than that in qualifying.

Something else is going on.
Simple, in that case they must be cheating...
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Old 23 May 2011, 15:24 (Ref:2884524)   #9
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fourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridfourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridfourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridfourWheelDrift should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Simple, in that case they must be cheating...
I see parallels with the Brawn diffuser row in as much as they do seem to have stolen a march in a particular area and everyone is pointing at that.

In fact I'd say the whole car is better optimised aero wise than the competition and even without that one trick everyone is pointing to they would still be almost as fast.
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Old 23 May 2011, 15:31 (Ref:2884531)   #10
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Simple, in that case they must be cheating...
I dunno. If you count employing the best designer in F1 as cheating, then perhaps.....
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Old 23 May 2011, 16:28 (Ref:2884564)   #11
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I dunno. If you count employing the best designer in F1 as cheating, then perhaps.....
Hi James. Sorry, but as usual there was no tongue in cheek smilie available for my last post...
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Old 23 May 2011, 19:10 (Ref:2884681)   #12
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I dont have an exact figures, but lets say 10%. So 20% of 10% is 0.5% overall.

Something else is going on.
Whatever is going on, it isn't maths.......

I think you'll find 20% of 10% is 2%.......


Here - you can have my mantle of pedantry, now, I've finished with it.....

I do agree with the general drift of your post, though
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Old 23 May 2011, 22:07 (Ref:2884795)   #13
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Very interesting article. It could explain the difference between the Red Bulls' qualifying and race pace.

I don't think that when the FIA comes to restrict the blown exhaust gases it will slow the Red Bull down much. They still have the best aerodynamics(courtesy of Mr. Newley). Sure I think Ferrari and McLaren might be able to take a couple of wins this season, but overall I think the Red Bull will still be the number one car of 2011.
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Old 23 May 2011, 22:25 (Ref:2884804)   #14
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It's an interesting article, but it is entirely conjecture. Might be right. Might be wrong. Wouldn't it be nice if Mrtin Brundle did one of his technical pieces on the blown diffusers and really fully explained how they get all this exhaust gas without power. And then quantified how much fuel that uses.

The article also alludes to another possible source of RB's qualifying performance, but then fails to develop the point. If RB have a DRS that gives more drag reduction than anyone elses, that would result in better relative performance during practice and qualifying (when DRS is used freely) than during the race.

Maybe it's a bit of each.
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Old 24 May 2011, 08:40 (Ref:2885010)   #15
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Whatever is going on, it isn't maths.......

I think you'll find 20% of 10% is 2%.......


Here - you can have my mantle of pedantry, now, I've finished with it.....

I do agree with the general drift of your post, though
Please ignore my bad math, had stinking cold yesterday, and brain was fading fast. The principle remains however, I don't think there is any way that this can explain the whole of the RB advantage. I also think they spend much less time of the brakes than I originally guessed, so it probably evens out.

The annoying thing about the article is that is implies that it is the correct and only answer - but as someone else pointed out - its all conjecture, and bad conjecture at that.
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Old 24 May 2011, 10:03 (Ref:2885054)   #16
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An additional point I noticed this weekend that may have a contribution to their qualifying pace is that all cars can use their DRS at any time, with no restriction in qualifying..... I noticed that particularly Vettel was opening the DRS flap in some high speed corners well before the apex of the turn.

Not only does this indicate the effectiveness of the aero package RBR have in raw form, for them to do what most others are it seems unable to do, to the same degree.

This reduction of drag by opening the flap obviously reduces the amount of downforce available, but it does not seem to affect the balance on the RBRs as they are audibly flat to the floor. Perhaps they have downforce to spare with their better optimised exhaust system / engine management, thus allowing the opening of the rear wing mid turn with no apparent detrimental effects to the handling.

Nett effect is the RBR seem to have a much greater corner exit speed, which would be reflected in increased straight line speed as well..... all of which would add up to a fair chunk of time over a full lap.

That Vettel was particularly aggressive in its early use on many corners would in turn perhaps explain Webber's relative lack of particularly qualifying pace compared to Vettel..
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Old 25 May 2011, 13:52 (Ref:2885723)   #17
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Like EB, I was thinking about the use of the flap. Martin Brundle and DC were expressing great surprise about the amount of use Vettel could make of the flap and this could be very significant, more perhaps than the exhaust gain.
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Old 26 May 2011, 12:40 (Ref:2886151)   #18
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Like EB, I was thinking about the use of the flap. Martin Brundle and DC were expressing great surprise about the amount of use Vettel could make of the flap and this could be very significant, more perhaps than the exhaust gain.
Much more I would have said. That flap creates a lot of drag, and in qualifying can be used for a lot of the lap. The EBD is only used off throttle, which isn't very much time at all. The more time spent off flap the better. (Does that sound a bit rude?)
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